Two finger closes [Archive]

Robert artmont

07-17-2011, 12:50 PM

Two finger closes are something I've not done much of over the years. I've been including them a lot lately, and they seem to respond well to negatives.

I've seen Joe close the #3 this way... And Gabriel sum come close! Has anyone else come close to this?

I think it's a nice feat, if you can do it! Of course, forcing it closed, and holding it shut- is impressive! I'm talking about having a cc width... With using your two longest fingers, Shouldn't be a big problem.

Even a #2 is pretty good from that range!

I'd like to hear from some of you guys performing this impressive feat!

Robert

Ben Edwards

07-17-2011, 01:37 PM

I've done a few #2.5s TNS with my index and middle fingers. #2 is an everyday easy thing for me. The #2.5 is one of those that is pretty difficult for me when I did it. My ring finger is pretty strong though - I've TNS closed a bunch of #3s with my pinky not on the handle. There are a good number of guys who can do this with a #2.5 though. Aaron Corcorran is one I think has done it. Gabriel Sum has done it with a #3 I thought. Teemu I. would be on that list since he is one of the best TNS gripper guys around. Martin Arildsson could probably do it with an easy #3. I've been very, very close with an easy #3 - but not with an average #3. Paul Knight? Mobster? Tim Struse? Adam Glass?

Robert artmont

07-17-2011, 05:24 PM

Randall Strossen

08-15-2012, 08:25 AM

Casey Emery

08-15-2012, 12:13 PM

[QUOTE= I'm talking about having a cc width... With using your two longest fingers[/QUOTE]

my two longest fingers are my ring and middle finger. Your talking about index and middle fingers right ?

Ben Edwards

08-15-2012, 04:12 PM

Robert -

I remember that Joe Kinney was the first guy who ever sent IronMind proof of closing a Captains of Crush No. 3 gripper with 2 fingers, but that was quite a few years ago—so nobody else has maybe done this and provided some backup for the claim?
What was the "proof" Randall? A photo? I have seen 3 guys in person close a #3 with index and middle fingers - using a parallel set. One of the guys did it with a much wider set...probably 2.

Are you only referring to a 2-finger no set close of a #3? In that case I haven't personally witnessed one. But there is no doubt in my mind that some of the freaks could do it on a minute's notice.

Randall Strossen

08-17-2012, 10:10 AM

What was the "proof" Randall? A photo? I have seen 3 guys in person close a #3 with index and middle fingers - using a parallel set. One of the guys did it with a much wider set...probably 2.

Are you only referring to a 2-finger no set close of a #3? In that case I haven't personally witnessed one. But there is no doubt in my mind that some of the freaks could do it on a minute's notice.

Ben -

Yes, it was a photo (Richard Sorin had said he had done this, but while I always believed him, I didn't have anything to back it up, plus, as I recall, Richard's close was done with an unmarked gripper).

It's good that you used full disclosure when mentioning the deep sets, but better yet would have been not to have mentioned them at all as it confuses things: it's like saying, "He squatted 974, but it was high."

Josh Dale

08-17-2012, 12:41 PM

Paul Knight, Vogt, and a select few others are likely capable but I've never seen anyone do it with a CCS. Frankly, I'm more impressed with Teemu's R&P #3 close at whatever width, than a CCS M&I.

Randall Strossen

08-17-2012, 01:54 PM

Paul Knight, Vogt, and a select few others are likely capable but I've never seen anyone do it with a CCS. Frankly, I'm more impressed with Teemu's R&P #3 close at whatever width, than a CCS M&I.

Josh -

This is kind of like each time I thought I was getting good at understanding guys with Scottish accents: then I'd talk to Forbes Cowan or someone else with a really thick Scottish accent and be left dazed wondering what the guy had just said.

So, what's R&P? Ring and pinky, maybe?

I guess the deal on range of motion (ok, ROM) goes back to keeping this simple and based on traditional standards, but I hear what you're saying.

My recollection was that Richard was handed a Silver Crush gripper and he closed it with 2 fingers and he thought it was a No. 2, but the guy who handed him the gripper (Gary Stich) said it was a No. 3. Am I remembered this correctly? It's probably in MILO if anyone wants to check, but it is for sure true that IronMind never got any photos, etc. documenting the feat, whereas Joe Kinney did send us a photo.

I'm with you that some of the top gripper guys around today could probably walk through this on a CoC No. 3 and would think they could do it not just at less than 1", but out in the 2" range as well.

Hey, nice going at the AAA Nationals! Are you the first CoC3 to win an open US national championships arm wrestling title?

Ben Edwards

08-17-2012, 02:16 PM

Ben -

Yes, it was a photo (Richard Sorin had said he had done this, but while I always believed him, I didn't have anything to back it up, plus, as I recall, Richard's close was done with an unmarked gripper).

It's good that you used full disclosure when mentioning the deep sets, but better yet would have been not to have mentioned them at all as it confuses things: it's like saying, "He squatted 974, but it was high."
Video would be best since it would be much easier to deep set close a #3 with 2 fingers and then take a picture. Not saying that's what happened with Kinney but if any of us submitted a photo of that it would be in question.

Point taken on it being better if I had not even mentioned them at all. I know my input isn't always appreciated but this seemed a bit harsh since I wasn't trying to hide the set depths or claim anything that didn't happen.

No problem though. I have been stepping away from grip stuff the past month and will continue on my new path.

Randall Strossen

08-17-2012, 02:34 PM

Video would be best since it would be much easier to deep set close a #3 with 2 fingers and then take a picture. Not saying that's what happened with Kinney but if any of us submitted a photo of that it would be in question.

Point taken on it being better if I had not even mentioned them at all. I know my input isn't always appreciated but this seemed a bit harsh since I wasn't trying to hide the set depths or claim anything that didn't happen.

No problem though. I have been stepping away from grip stuff the past month and will continue on my new path.

Ben -

Absolutely about a photo not being perfect, but at the time, that was a big step forward—video has been a huge advance for the verification of feat of strength and even back before YouTube came to town, I used to urge Richard to video some of his feats of strength so they would be harder for people to question, challenge or dismiss.

Sorry if my comments sounded harsh, but you know how guys would react that I could closed a CoC No. 4 with 2 fingers using a WVS (Wilton Vise Set): even with full disclosure, it would merit a Big deal—who cares? And over time, it would come to be reported as Strossen said he could close a CoC 4 with 2 fingers, with no mention of the WVS that set up the feat, and a little later, the Strossen said part would also be forgotten and it would simply be known that I'd closed a CoC No. 4 with 2 fingers.

Not sure what your new path is, but I'm hoping that it's still got you in the strength world and regardless, I've always appreciated your enthusiasm for gripper training and helping guys with theirs—even if we don't see eye to eye on all things gripper.

Josh Dale

08-20-2012, 07:58 AM

Josh -

This is kind of like each time I thought I was getting good at understanding guys with Scottish accents: then I'd talk to Forbes Cowan or someone else with a really thick Scottish accent and be left dazed wondering what the guy had just said.

So, what's R&P? Ring and pinky, maybe?

I guess the deal on range of motion (ok, ROM) goes back to keeping this simple and based on traditional standards, but I hear what you're saying.

My recollection was that Richard was handed a Silver Crush gripper and he closed it with 2 fingers and he thought it was a No. 2, but the guy who handed him the gripper (Gary Stich) said it was a No. 3. Am I remembered this correctly? It's probably in MILO if anyone wants to check, but it is for sure true that IronMind never got any photos, etc. documenting the feat, whereas Joe Kinney did send us a photo.

I'm with you that some of the top gripper guys around today could probably walk through this on a CoC No. 3 and would think they could do it not just at less than 1", but out in the 2" range as well.

Hey, nice going at the AAA Nationals! Are you the first CoC3 to win an open US national championships arm wrestling title?

You are correct on R&P = ring and pinky. Teemu is also the guy that has done a TUG 7 in that manner. I asked Richard directly if his closes back in the day were measured with a credit card and he admitted they were not but felt they would have been pretty close.

Without checking the list, as I'm sure there are plenty of other but just off the top of my head, Nick Zinna has a boatload of National titles and of course guys like Ioan pull at the world level and no doubt have many national titles of their own as well as Magnus who was the European champion at somepoint (?).

Randall Strossen

08-21-2012, 08:24 AM

You are correct on R&P = ring and pinky. Teemu is also the guy that has done a TUG 7 in that manner. I asked Richard directly if his closes back in the day were measured with a credit card and he admitted they were not but felt they would have been pretty close.

Without checking the list, as I'm sure there are plenty of other but just off the top of my head, Nick Zinna has a boatload of National titles and of course guys like Ioan pull at the world level and no doubt have many national titles of their own as well as Magnus who was the European champion at somepoint (?).

Josh -

I hadn't thought of Nick (Cristian and Magnus haven't won open US National titles, which is what I asked), but good job anyway.

Don't ding Richard on the credit card thing—back then, we didn't need to use one because we didn't have to deal with deep sets . . . they hadn't yet been developed, rationalized and institutionalized by the GOPD segment and others.

The only qualifiers to Richard's 2-finger close that I recall are whether it really was a No. 3 and the lack of any backup evidence that the close had taken place.

Frankly, I always believed it had, but not everyone is that generous, although I would say that without measuring the spring, it would be very easy to mistake a No. 2 for a No. 3 when seen in isolation (just like it would be easy to mistake a 157-lb. Inch replica for a a 172-lb. Inch replica if seen by itself and not measured). And since Richard, I believe, said he thought it was a No. 2 but then was told it was a No. 3, that's consistent with the idea that it really was a No. 2, but no matter because I'm guessing that Richard probably went on to do a well-documented 2-finger close of a recent vintage and fully labelled CoC No. 3 and ended all the speculation, right?

Robert artmont

08-21-2012, 08:32 AM

Richard has said he has done it more than once. So that should take care of the doubt that he did it with a no.2 by mistaken identity.

Josh Dale

08-21-2012, 05:39 PM

Josh -

I hadn't thought of Nick (Cristian and Magnus haven't won open US National titles, which is what I asked), but good job anyway.

Don't ding Richard on the credit card thing—back then, we didn't need to use one because we didn't have to deal with deep sets . . . they hadn't yet been developed, rationalized and institutionalized by the GOPD segment and others.

The only qualifiers to Richard's 2-finger close that I recall are whether it really was a No. 3 and the lack of any backup evidence that the close had taken place.

Frankly, I always believed it had, but not everyone is that generous, although I would say that without measuring the spring, it would be very easy to mistake a No. 2 for a No. 3 when seen in isolation (just like it would be easy to mistake a 157-lb. Inch replica for a a 172-lb. Inch replica if seen by itself and not measured). And since Richard, I believe, said he thought it was a No. 2 but then was told it was a No. 3, that's consistent with the idea that it really was a No. 2, but no matter because I'm guessing that Richard probably went on to do a well-documented 2-finger close of a recent vintage and fully labelled CoC No. 3 and ended all the speculation, right?

Oh yes I know, all the CoCs prior to the evil Bill Piche and his demonspawn program KTA, barely set the gripper if at all:rolleyes:

Sam Scott

08-21-2012, 05:57 PM

If Sorin CCS a old silver #3 with 2 fingers, than surely he could gather the strength to cert on the 3.5?

Randall Strossen

08-22-2012, 06:36 AM

If Sorin CCS a old silver #3 with 2 fingers, than surely he could gather the strength to cert on the 3.5?

That's an interesting idea: add the other two fingers and go up half a level on the CoC ladder.

Anybody tried this and agree/disagree with this proposed relationship?

Josh Dale

08-22-2012, 08:24 AM

That's an interesting idea: add the other two fingers and go up half a level on the CoC ladder.

Anybody tried this and agree/disagree with this proposed relationship?

I can CCS a #2 with 2 fingers easier than I can CCS a #3 with all four. Maybe someone like Teemu with freakish R&P would prove Sam true but otherwise I don't think it's the new "Corlett Constant"

Just reread the post and realized it would be a 2.5 so I think Sam might be on to something here

Randall Strossen

08-22-2012, 08:43 AM

I can CCS a #2 with 2 fingers easier than I can CCS a #3 with all four. Maybe someone like Teemu with freakish R&P would prove Sam true but otherwise I don't think it's the new "Corlett Constant"

Josh -

Sounds reasonable, at least in your case, but how about Sam's specific claim here:

If Sorin CCS a old silver #3 with 2 fingers, than surely he could gather the strength to cert on the 3.5?

What do you think about that?

Not sure if you ever messed around much with Silver Crush #3 grippers, but at least some of them could be pretty wide and all were slick and wanted to dance around in your hand compared to a CoC.

Come to think of it, you already know all that because you're the guy who said something like only a lightweight would directly compare a Silver Crush RGC to a CoC RGC, for example, right?

So, is Sam right?

Randall Strossen

08-22-2012, 08:57 AM

Oh yes I know, all the CoCs prior to the evil Bill Piche and his demonspawn program KTA, barely set the gripper if at all:rolleyes:

Josh -

Who's kidding whom here?

The real point has nothing to do with setting vs. not setting: it's the length of the stroke and don't do Bill the disservice to think he'd call a deep set anything but the partial movement it is. Maybe you also think Bill doesn't know the difference between a legitimate squat and one that's too high to count?

Got GOPD?

Josh Dale

08-22-2012, 09:22 AM

Josh -

Sounds reasonable, at least in your case, but how about Sam's specific claim here:

What do you think about that?

Not sure if you ever messed around much with Silver Crush #3 grippers, but at least some of them could be pretty wide and all were slick and wanted to dance around in your hand compared to a CoC.

Come to think of it, you already know all that because you're the guy who said something like only a lightweight would directly compare a Silver Crush RGC to a CoC RGC, for example, right?

So, is Sam right?

Well the first problem is I didn't read Sam's post very well and was comparing whole levels to halfs hence the editing reason I listed. I think the slickness would be minimized on CCS 2 finger because you basically just jam it into your webbing and it's not going anywhere (kind of like you position a TUG) vs. the sweetspot you try to keep it in on a full finger close

Josh Dale

08-22-2012, 09:24 AM

Josh -

Who's kidding whom here?

The real point has nothing to do with setting vs. not setting: it's the length of the stroke and don't do Bill the disservice to think he'd call a deep set anything but the partial movement it is. Maybe you also think Bill doesn't know the difference between a legitimate squat and one that's too high to count?

Got GOPD?

Setting and stroke length have nothing to do with one another? Do explain good Sir!

Randall Strossen

08-22-2012, 10:20 AM

Setting and stroke length have nothing to do with one another? Do explain good Sir!

Righto, which is why guys shouldn't muddy the water by blending the two: Your point about sets existing PKTA (pre Kinney Training Adapted) was to imply that deep setters had also existed in a big way PKTA, diluting Captains of Crush certifications with a tidal wave of half-strokers throughout the 20th century.

Not so, says TEDS, and maybe ask some of the relics here or on the Gripboard (including RS and RJS) if they ever saw someone deep set a gripper prior to the early part of the 21st century and then also think about how often KTA graduates are quick to demonstrate proper setting (always deep when they do it, too, please note) with a flourish to goggle-eyed GOPD aspirants.

So, yes setting (as in finding the sweet spot) has been around at least as long as IronMind began pushing the concept in the 1990s, but deep sets, had to be developed, championed and institutionalized—which they were a decade later.

Josh Dale

08-22-2012, 11:17 AM

Righto, which is why guys shouldn't muddy the water by blending the two: Your point about sets existing PKTA (pre Kinney Training Adapted) was to imply that deep setters had also existed in a big way PKTA, diluting Captains of Crush certifications with a tidal wave of half-strokers throughout the 20th century.

Yes, that's exactly what I was impyling.

Not so, says TEDS, and maybe ask some of the relics here or on the Gripboard (including RS and RJS) if they ever saw someone deep set a gripper prior to the early part of the 21st century and then also think about how often KTA graduates are quick to demonstrate proper setting (always deep when they do it, too, please note) with a flourish to goggle-eyed GOPD aspirants.

So RS and RJS personally witnessed the majority of the CoC certs in the early part of the 21st century? If you're referring to foam handled ones, many don't even measure CCS at rest so I'm not suprised to hear that people didn't set them. As for deep, well...it's only deep by TEDS' standards, let's remember the parallel set is the standard in competition. It's also worth mentioning that KTA championed building a huge thumbpad to act as a stop as much as it ever talked about set depth. There are also people that don't understand that their fingers should be all the way down on a gripper or that the further back in their palm it is, the less leverage they have.

So, yes setting (as in finding the sweet spot) has been around at least as long as IronMind began pushing the concept in the 1990s, but deep sets, had to be developed, championed and institutionalized—which they were a decade later.

Again, I'm sure that prior to KTA "setting" was certainly no more than CCS....even though nobody actually measured it.:rolleyes:

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Randall Strossen

08-22-2012, 12:34 PM

RJS: Righto, which is why guys shouldn't muddy the water by blending the two: Your point about sets existing PKTA (pre Kinney Training Adapted) was to imply that deep setters had also existed in a big way PKTA, diluting Captains of Crush certifications with a tidal wave of half-strokers throughout the 20th century.

JD: Yes, that's exactly what I was impyling, so I realized you're correct again when I read your next comment.

RJS: Not so, says TEDS, and maybe ask some of the relics here or on the Gripboard (including RS and RJS) if they ever saw someone deep set a gripper prior to the early part of the 21st century and then also think about how often KTA graduates are quick to demonstrate proper setting (always deep when they do it, too, please note) with a flourish to goggle-eyed GOPD aspirants.

JD: I checked around and the consensus among my peers is that none of us were doing grippers then, so we defer to RS and RJS among others on this point. I personally began with a foam handled gripper about a decade after RS certified, but quickly moved up. As for deep, well...it's only deep by TEDS' standards, let's remember the parallel set is the standard in competitions run by the guys who like to deep set because as they say, Why spend all that time and money traveling to a contest if you're not going to close big grippers? It's also worth mentioning that KTA championed building a huge thumbpad to act as a stop as much as it ever talked about set depth, but I understand that's irrelevant to comments about the origins of the deep set, which is the point under discussion. There are also people that don't understand that their fingers should be all the way down on a gripper or that the further back in their palm it is, the less leverage they have, although I understand that once again I am veering off topic.

RJS: So, yes setting (as in finding the sweet spot) has been around at least as long as IronMind began pushing the concept in the 1990s, but deep sets, had to be developed, championed and institutionalized—which they were a decade later.

JD: Again, I'm sure that prior to KTA "setting" was certainly not much less than 1/2 the stroke of a CCS....even though nobody actually measured it, so this would be like comparing a half squat to an IPF-legal squat. Ok—I finally understand this and want to thank you for being so patient explaining these points. :rolleyes:

RJS: You are very welcome—it's always my pleasure to help a fellow grip man.

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Robert artmont

08-22-2012, 12:46 PM

This is great stuff here:D

Josh Dale

08-22-2012, 01:30 PM

Josh Dale

08-22-2012, 01:32 PM

BTW, the number chain was to dummy out your quote police which required a 10 character response to publish my post.

Randall Strossen

08-22-2012, 01:50 PM

Let me see if I can follow this

1. CCS was not actually measured "back in the day" but we're sure that the oldtimers didn't deep-set because PKTA nobody did.

2. Most credit cards are 2.13" and again we didn't measure PKTA but since the "deep-set" is less than half the stroke of a CCS even if they were a little short on credit, it wouldn't have mattered.

3. Parallel/"deep" set is about .75" on most grippers, even wider on some and the legal set with IM was 1" for a while. This means TEDS' skirt was twisted over .25"

4. So as long as the legendary oldtimers were eyeballing the set-depths to no narrower than 1.89" then TEDS is fine but 1.88" and the keepers of the flame should have been notified.

BTW, the number chain was to dummy out your quote police which required a 10 character response to publish my post.

Point 1: Slowly but surely, you're coming around so go ahead and check with the guys who were there then and see how many did what a guy I knows calls "that chicken xxxx deep set stuff."

Point 2: No need for fancy math here as we're talking a stroke that's about 2" vs. one that's under 1".

Point 3: I can see that you still haven't quite gotten it that the 1" rule was around for less than a year in the 22-year history of CoC certifications, so it was the anomoly, not the norm. I know that's a tough concept to digest, but TEDS says with enough repetition, it will penetrate even the thickest of cortexes. See my reply to your last point, below, for more on this.

Point 4: Sounds to me like you're off in RGC-ville with numbers like that: KISS and think 1" vs. 2" and you'll be on track.

I got it about the number string: I was jerking your chain by returning them in reverse order. :;st)

Josh Dale

08-23-2012, 06:54 AM

Point 1: Slowly but surely, you're coming around so go ahead and check with the guys who were there then and see how many did what a guy I knows calls "that chicken xxxx deep set stuff."

Yes, fortunately we all get better as we get older.

Point 2: No need for fancy math here as we're talking a stroke that's about 2" vs. one that's under 1".

Well there is really no need for math at all since they didn't measure it.

Point 3: I can see that you still haven't quite gotten it that the 1" rule was around for less than a year in the 22-year history of CoC certifications, so it was the anomoly, not the norm. I know that's a tough concept to digest, but TEDS says with enough repetition, it will penetrate even the thickest of cortexes. See my reply to your last point, below, for more on this.

Oh I understand it was only around for a short while and as much fun as it is to remind you of that as often as possible, the reason for bringing it up is you abolished it because guys were .25" off with the parallel/"deep set" but you apparently think that nobody could have been off by that much back in the day when nobody "deep set" grippers and they were all 2" sets or (even though we didn't measure them).

Point 4: Sounds to me like you're off in RGC-ville with numbers like that: KISS and think 1" vs. 2" and you'll be on track.

I'm the muthafluffin' mayor of RGC-ville!

I got it about the number string: I was jerking your chain by returning them in reverse order. :;st)

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Randall Strossen

08-23-2012, 07:07 AM

0101010101

See—I knew you could learn fast!

Doug Carroll

08-23-2012, 01:47 PM

Randall Strossen

08-23-2012, 03:41 PM

Ok fellas don't laugh but I have a question, I found my grippers, a trainer and a #2, I think my wife bought them for me around 98'. They are like new since I've only used them sporadically. Here's my question, what is a deepset vs. just grabbing and squeezing? Any help would be appreciated, thank you.

Doug -

I copied your post over to another thread, because that's the very topic being kicked around over there:

http://www.ironmind-forum.com/showthread.php?1664-GOPD-Gripper-Obsession-Personality-Disorder/page11

Say, your wife has got good taste—in grippers as well as husbands.