Equivalent Performances

[Randall Strossen]

Ok, it's relatively easy to define grip strength performances at the very top level, but how about coming down a notch or two - to what is not world class, but certainly noteworthy (and achievable by just about anyone).

For starters, I use fully closing (ATM card start) a Captains of Crush No. 2 gripper to define the level grip strength I am talking about. What's this equal to in terms of the Hub or Rolling Thunder, for example?

[Todd Lewis]

I am curious to know the correlation between COC closing and nail building, ie. do we have people who cannot close the No. 3 but who are bending the Red Nail and vice versa. Also, speaking of correlations, have you considered making a Rolling Thunder certification (as opposed to record) list similar to the Red Nail and COC lists? As what a good or great lift on the hub seems to be an unestablished achievement (we don't know what it would be) it seems that establishing a hub certification will take a much longer time.

[Todd Lewis]

That's nail "bending," not "building"

[Robert artmont]

I would think that, around 40lbs is #2 level on a hub. And 70 and up is great! I have an older one... I don't know if the new one is the same or not.

[Robert artmont]

...and 140lb on the rolling thunder.

[Ben Edwards]

I'd agree with about 40lbs on the Hub being equal to a CCS #2 close.

And 160lbs on the RT is in the same neighborhood for a guy with an average-size (7.5"-ish) hand.

[Ben Edwards]

I am curious to know the correlation between COC closing and nail building, ie. do we have people who cannot close the No. 3 but who are bending the Red Nail and vice versa. Also, speaking of correlations, have you considered making a Rolling Thunder certification (as opposed to record) list similar to the Red Nail and COC lists? As what a good or great lift on the hub seems to be an unestablished achievement (we don't know what it would be) it seems that establishing a hub certification will take a much longer time.
I have a very good friend who was destroying Red Nails in Ironmind pads - down to 6" Reds - and he wasn't able to close an easy #3 even with a parallel set. And he worked on that for over 5 years so grippers were actually receiving more focus than bending was. His best CCS close was about the average #2.5 level.

I know a few guys who are closing grippers beyond the #3 (#3.5 level and a bit harder) but are not able to bend the Red. That's almost more of a technique issue for a decently strong guy with any semblance of flexibility in the shoulders in my opinion though. Some of the guys don't spend much or any time training their bending either so that's part of the problem.

[Mike Corlett]

I think I may have stared at Dale Harder's "grip" pages in his book "You Can Compare Apples to Oranges" longer than anyone. Ten years ago, his books were available via IronMind, but now he is probably the only distributor. His methodology was to develop a system with Decathlon-like points ratings for just about all sports. So, you would be able to compare a baseball player with a golfer with a sprinter with a grip guy.

It 100% works for Track and Field, as there are hundreds of thousands of performances over 100 years. I like the concept for grip, but it is way too young a sport to be making that kind of a leap. The reason I say that is that at one time, I considered myself "World Class" on the IronMind Hub, as that is what the numbers seemed to indicate. Now that I have landed on Planet Earth, I am a bit more realistic about it.

Rolling Thunder. I hope there are never "certifications" for it. Why? It is too hand-size dependent. To pull great Rolling Thunder numbers you have to have it all: Strength, grip, height, and large hands. Show me one person, just one, who has pulled over 250 lbs who is under 6 feet tall OR has hands under 8 inches. Maybe they are out there, but I have not heard of them. My son has a friend who can deadlift well over 700 lbs (opens with over 700 in PL meets), and can easily close the 2. I gave the two on them one of my old Rolling Thunders six months ago. The reason I don't hear from them about it is that I don't think either of them can pull 175 on it. They both have 7.5 inch hands. Bob Sundin (on this forum) pretty much can turn most "big guy and big hands" theories upside down on the subject of Rolling Thunder (his hands are 7 5/8ths I think, he is not a big guy, and is over 50 years old).

But, certifications and "World Class" aside, I think I agree with Ben about a 160 being a Number 2 for average hands, but I would put it at 180 for larger handed guys. And 150 for a small handed man is very good.

On the Hub, the "paint" style changed some over the last 10 years, or at least on my two hubs it has. The newer one, although to the eye looks like it would be easier, is more difficult. Even with the more difficult texture, I have a hard time calling 40 lbs equivalent to a Number 2 close. I could go with 45...

[Chris Rice]

Some of us have talked about this over the years. The problem is that people have such wide variances in natural abilities on the different things tested - even assuming equal training focus, which seldom is the case. Lifter A for whatever reason is just naturally good at say grippers but relatively poor at say Rolling Thunder. Lifter B is just the opposite - and for no obvious reason you can see like Mark Felix size hands etc - they just are. Even among the very top guys these natural advantages or disadvantages are there - just at higher levels. I just don't think it's really possible to make statements like a COC#2 equals X on the Hub, Y on the Rolling Thunder, and Z on the Two Hand Pinch.

[Todd Lewis]

Ben and Mike,

Thanks for the information. As someone entirely new to the whole idea of PL, grip and bender "communities", and especially with the past few months of posts concerning bending, etc., my curiosity is that of a newbie.

Let me put my question another way.

Are there many who seek the Red Nail certification that have no interest in COC certification? I am absolutely not interested in names.

Todd

P.S. Sorry for straying from the original topic

[Ben Edwards]

Mike, you are very strong on the Ironmind Hub for real. 40lbs used to stop a lot of guys (even less actually) when I had one sitting around in my garage some years back. Some of these guys were able to hub "friendly" 45s - those with no slope and a good texture for lifting.

[Robert artmont]

Does anyone know if 80lbs has been done on the hub? I've seen and heard about lifting a 45lb plate with weight added... But not on the hub.

If so, where would it rank? Tho I already know it's world class.

[Mike Corlett]

Does anyone know if 80lbs has been done on the hub? I've seen and heard about lifting a 45lb plate with weight added... But not on the hub.

If so, where would it rank? Tho I already know it's world class.


Here is a link to probably the most extensive discussion on "The Hub" on the Forum:

http://www.ironmind-forum.com/showthread.php?96-Hub-Lifting/page5

I saw Odd Haugen do 80 lbs on the IM Hub in October 2010, which is one of the later posts on the thread.

[Mike Corlett]

I pulled out my 2005 edition of You Can Compare Apples to Oranges by D Harder that I mentioned a bit earlier. His equivalent to closing a Number 2 (full range, more than Credit Card width) was 40 for the Hub and 137.5 for the RT. As I mentioned previously, I believe that those numbers are "Sub-Number 2 closes". On the RT, even for a "small handed" guy I stand by that.
Closing the Number 2, outside of a few strength forums, is an impressive feat.

[Randall Strossen]

Here is a link to probably the most extensive discussion on "The Hub" on the Forum:

http://www.ironmind-forum.com/showthread.php?96-Hub-Lifting/page5

I saw Odd Haugen do 80 lbs on the IM Hub in October 2010, which is one of the later posts on the thread.


Mike -

Odd really has quite a grip . . .

[Robert artmont]

Mike -

Odd really has quite a grip . . .

Randall-
What you used to say in the catalog.. He can probably change spark plugs with his bare hands!

[Jordan Rechsteiner]

Randall-
What you used to say in the catalog.. He can probably change spark plugs with his bare hands!

Change spark plugs with his bare hands! That is also one of my goals in grip Robert, and thus far I seem to be a ways away yet. I want to do that when I am 40 you know? With some buddies in my garage and I say, "**** don't have a metric socket...oh well" *crish, squeak, squeak* "All done." :) That would be so hard core-esp if it was an old vehicle and had lots of corrosion. Maybe Dr. Strossen should give a spark plug cert. A rusty old sparkplug has to equal a #4 +.:;sm) Ok 'nuff silliness from me.

-Jordan

[Mike Corlett]

Let me put my question another way.

Are there many who seek the Red Nail certification that have no interest in COC certification? I am absolutely not interested in names.



No one ever answered your question, did they?

I think the answer to it is "yes". There are many "into grip" that avoid bending. There are others who specialize in bending but don't do that much in other areas of grip.

I also think there are guys out there slugging away who don't post on any forums who are very impressive at what they do. Sometimes we make the mistake of thinking we know "all the players", when the pool is actually much larger than we thought.

[Robert artmont]

No one ever answered your question, did they?

I think the answer to it is "yes". There are many "into grip" that avoid bending. There are others who specialize in bending but don't do that much in other areas of grip.

I also think there are guys out there slugging away who don't post on any forums who are very impressive at what they do. Sometimes we make the mistake of thinking we know "all the players", when the pool is actually much larger than we thought.

Well said mike. The pool has to be bigger than we know. One who competes, or likes to video and show performances, are to each his own. You either like to show others, or sit back and know for yourself that what you just saw them do is a warm up. I'm sure there are a few like that out here.

[Jordan Rechsteiner]

No one ever answered your question, did they?

I think the answer to it is "yes". There are many "into grip" that avoid bending. There are others who specialize in bending but don't do that much in other areas of grip.

I also think there are guys out there slugging away who don't post on any forums who are very impressive at what they do. Sometimes we make the mistake of thinking we know "all the players", when the pool is actually much larger than we thought.

The reason I don't bend is simple: Bending hurts! I mean I don't use those wraps and that would make a world of difference if I did, but I speaking as a bending neophyte know that unlike grippers, blobs, hubs, or whatever you are into one of the hurdles in bending is it seems to accompany more pain than the other disciplines. Not a "oh I feel the burn pain" or "wow that was heavy pain" or an aching pain you get after a good day with grippers. Bending pain for me, is a shooting pain that cuts through my hands and body and I think it must be even moreso for the experts. Its just an opinion of a know-nothing in this field but it seems to me that a bender has made peace with having a massive amount of shooting pain in one of the most sensitive parts of the body-the hands. Hats off to any bender as this is only a discipline for extremely devoted people. It could be I just have boney hands but in my mind, while there is hardship and sacrifces in any human endeavor, pain in other hand exercises is always a by-product. In bending, it is a primary factor and that is what separates it most in my opinion, to other grip sports. Does anyone feel the same way I do on this? Or am I just a bending wuss? :;lh)

-Jordan