Is the big Z the best strongman ever?

[Wolfgang Hasenmaier]

In my opinion yes. In his 14 th year at world class levelk he still shatters world records in the most telling lifts, the ones using static strength. Pudzianowsky is not even close. He never had one single record at strongman deadlift or at overhead feats. Zydrunas Savickas has more than a dozen wrs. Even when "loosing" during the last Arnold Strongman contests he nonetheless wins all the static events there vs anyone on the planet. Mr. Nietzsche thought of a fellow like him when writing the U...mensch. Plus the big Z is a nice guy with no arrogant attitude. May he long prosper for his Lithuanian homeland.

[Wolfgang Hasenmaier]

Thanks for the extensive feedback once again.

[Craig T. Covington]

I think you are probably right. Big Z is possibly the strongest Strongman ever. His overhead pressing power is unmatched. I'd like to see him win another WSM title or two. He deserves it.

[John Beatty]

The question was is Z the best ever. I'd say no. He may be the strongest ever, but the best strongman is not necessarily the strongest. Static events only will win you some meets (Arnold) but if you leave weaknesses in the mobile events, you won't be the best. You mix the events well, and a guy like Mariusz will always beat a guy like Z. Z is amazing, don't get me wrong, but give him a meet with some of the less used events like tire flip, Husafell stone, Fingals Fingers & such that were more popular a few years back, and he gets knocked way down by those events. It's been long said that a guy that places top 3 in every event will usually win.

[Thomas Heikes]

Big Z has won more major strongman titles, world championships and has set more world records than any other strongman competitor in history, how could he not be the best? He is the most decorated strongman competitor of all time, Mariusz is a legend but he is not on the same level as Big Z in terms of total career accomplishments.

[Craig T. Covington]

John,
Yeah, Wolfgang's question was whether Big Z is the best but then he goes on to point out his dominance in static strength. Who we think is the best is subjective and dependent on what we consider most important. You're right that there's more to strongman than just static strength but since it is called 'strong' man and not 'fast' man, I, personally, consider strength to be most important. In that respect, I consider Z to be the best. Mariusz has kicked butt in WSM but, like Thomas said, Big Z has done more, career wise, than Mariusz. I like Brian Shaw but he's still young so I'd like to see Z win a few more World's Strongest Man titles because that's what would probably earn him the most respect even though, ironically enough, many of the events don't actually determine who is the strongest man in the world.

[Wolfgang Hasenmaier]

My opinion:He is at the top for 12 years and on top for 8 years (even at the last Arnold Classics he had the best one rep max lifts vs the young ones who had not 2 decades of wear and tear in their bones).
Rep records and speed and duration records are NOT max strength parametres. Sorry.
Overhead, squat and dl ability for 1 rep max are the most telling factors in my opinion. Mariusz never got any single record there, there is a reason for that. In these regards the big Z is unparalleled. Number of victories at quality contests is the same story. Noone is close.
Only guy who was (perhaps) remotely as strong but not even close in endurance and title wins was Glenn Ross from 2003-2005. The big Z still gets new world records in convinicing style, after all these years of extreme competition.

[Mark Shuetrim]

maybe WSM is a misnomer, maybe it should be called World's Best Repper...

[Paul Wood]

Overhead, squat and dl ability for 1 rep max are the most telling factors in my opinion.
Replace overhead with bench in that sentence and what do you have?
Sounds like powerlifting would interest you more than strongman. I like the variety of the carrying events etc.

[Craig T. Covington]

I like the carrying events also but I don't think they really indicate who is the strongest unless they're done for distance, not time. A finish line only determines who is faster, not stronger.

[Neil Mitchell]

Personally I'm a massive MVM fan but I think Zydrunas has passed MVM, JPS & Mariusz as the best strongman off all time. Let's not forget Zydrunas came back from what was described as serious patellar ligament injuries early in his strongman career.

How much longer he can go on for, I don't no, he's around 37 or 38 but he's still a short-priced favourite to win any contest he enters.

[Jacob Williams]

It's fun to debate who is the best of the best, but I have to suggest that (like Dr. Einstein said), it's all relative... every generation, I'm sure would claim the top guy of their day to be the best of the best... I'm probably always going to look at guys like Kaz and Jon Pall as the best simply because they were "the man" when I came up... Strongman as a sport is so different now compared to what it was when it first started out as the original WSM tv program... the way guys train is different, the events are different, etc. so it's just so hard to judge... hell even the size of the guys is so different... for example, Kaz is a giant of a man (even now) compared to just about anyone's standards... but now we have guys like Shaw and Thor that are nothing short of moving mountains... that said, Z has to be on the list of best of the best... pressing power is prob the best ever... not too many weaknesses really... someone should invent a computer program like they did in boxing to compare all of the greats...

[Wolfgang Hasenmaier]

Mariusz best log jerk(not even a press..) is around 400-420.
Z has pressed as strict as the Kaz a full 106 -onehundredandsix- lbs more than the Kaz (373) in the log press at 479 lbs...



No disrepect towards any of these legends, I admire all of them. But the Z is at a different level. His decade long domination at pure max strength indicates that he more often than not has a considerable reserve.
Anyone can name any 1 rep max feats feats even close to the aforementioned of the Z? I respect other opinions but the beauty of strength is that the numbers don`t lie if the athlete is a practitioner of strict lifts, like Zavickas.

Geneticwise
A former US strongman once pressed a new world record in the max weight overhead press of a natural stone for 1 rep and did it for 5 (!) reps at a strongman contest in Netherlands, pressed strictly, just arms...301 lbs of granite. I have it on DVD. He moved it like a toy. He afterwards joked to the frustrated cometitors: I thought it would be for reps.. He is rumoured to have done a log press of 400 lbs for 4 or 5 reps as well. Name escapes me at the moment but he trained with Ed Coan in 2003 and worked 80-90 hours* a week construction on occasions for several months in a row. On his 1 st of 2nd try ever at powerlifting he did a 2300 lbs+ IPF quality total.Proves once again that there are men with superhuman genetics. Z is cut from the same cloth.

*My recuperative abbilities and yours would be wrecked in 1 day with such a workload

[Peter Martin]

Wolfgang,

Is there a "strength" gene? as I am somewhat bewildered by your comment about strength and genetics. As read, the statement could be considered by older members of this forum as offensive considering that someone also had that same ideaology many years ago.

The thread is enjoyable and I would not dissagree with your comments about the big Z........however any hint of a "master race of supermen", especially by a German....I personally find deeply offensive.
Peter

[Craig T. Covington]

Peter,
It doesn't sound to me like Wolfgang is implying anything about a "master race". The one strongman he mentioned was from the U.S., heritage unknown. Big Z is from Lithuania. He also states his own recuperative abilities would be wrecked with the workload of the one guy. I think he just meant individual genetics. I can understand how it may have been taken as offensive but I didn't see it that way. Then again, I'm from a younger generation and view things from a different perspective.

Wolfgang,

One of the reasons I liked Kaz more than JPS is because of the way Kaz pressed the logs strictly but JPS would rest them on top of his head and then press it the rest of the way. Even though it wasn't against the rules, I considered that cheating.


I wonder, though, how much less Big Z would press if he had to use real logs that would probably be bigger in diameter and maybe not perfectly balanced. I have no doubt he would still out press Kaz but I think the gap would most likely not be as big.

[Doug Carroll]

Wolfgang, I think you are referring to Brian Schoonveld(spelling ?), most people called him Schoonie. I will try and find the interview where he talked preparing for a 500 log? or axle? I am not sure of the details, but I will try and find it. Brian was and is I believe still laboring, and yes he has very long weekly and monthly committments.


Peter, I do not think Wolfgang's remarks were racist at all. I have had the opportunity to work and train with a wide variety of people, and some of them had that "something" that put them ahead of others. Perhaps it was superior genetics, I don't know. What I do know is that as far as lifting and training hard over the long period, a lot of those that had immediate progress initially, would often quit when progress slowed and hard work and perseverence took the place of rapid gains.

[Doug Carroll]

Wolfgang, if you go to the Marunde Muscle forum click on interviews, there Brian Schoonveld talks about the 136kg field stone for 5 reps. Untill I find the info on him talking about the 500, please disregard, and if I'm mistaken about that, I will be sure to admit it. In the interview he talks about hitting the axle for 4 reps @396 and Kaz and Randy thought he was good for 420, that was in 02'.

[James Grahame]

Here is the Schoonveld stone lift that was mentioned earlier


http://youtu.be/uRNS6C3_lnI

[Peter Martin]

Proves once again that there are men with superhuman genetics

Wolfgang,

Please explain when was the first time this was proved?


Is this ideaology shared by the present German people and how would they react to such a statement?

I repeat, I find this statement personally offensive......I do not care what others may think but I still hold the view that this remark is one of the most insulting that has ever appeared on this Forum and it is as read, an assertion of extremism. Of course, this may not be your view but I do think that you need to explain.

Peter

[Peter Martin]

Thanks for the extensive feedback once again.

A glib comment because no-one had replied to your initial post......are the minions expected to lay at your feet and listen to such words of wisdom?

Again....please explain this nonsense of genetics and strength and what was meant by your statement.

Peter

[Peter Martin]

Wolfgang,

I am still waiting on this explanation of "superhuman genetics".

Peter

[David Wigren]

Wolfgang,

I am still waiting on this explanation of "superhuman genetics".

Peter

While Wolfgang's example does not prove that there are any "superhuman genetics". There are indeed many different genetic makeups that will give some individuals an advantage when it comes to strength and developing strength. This genetic potential is in no way tied to any "race" because there is likely many different genetic makeups that will produce strong individuals, given the right enviroment.
However these days I find it silly to talk about genetics regarding the top strength athletes. With PEDs in the mix the "Superhuman genes" discussion sort of becomes pointless. Of course though there will also be different gene setups that will determine how individuals respond to drugs and how much they can take. So maybe that's what the "Superhuman genes" are about, how much performance enhancing drugs you can take.:;lh)

Also important to recognize is that us humans are more alike than we are different. Indeed most of all healthy men and women can get very strong if they expose themselves to the proper training and diet. But can every man or woman become the world's strongest man? The answer is no.

EDIT - By the way I do not know if Savickas is on PEDs. But I think we can assume that in the sport of strongman, a large percentage of the contestants are using PEDs.

[Peter Martin]

David,

I agree with you 100%......there are many contributing factors that can and will effect an individuals strength but these are not genetic. Wolfgang in his post suggests that there are genetically superior humanbeings and that it has been previously proved ! It is what underpins this rather profound statement that is of great concern and I know for that a fact that the present German culture would positively baulk at such a suggestion and, like myself see it as a form of extremism. There is no place for it....even on the Forum.

Wolfgang might be the nicest guy who has walked planet Earth but he has yet to explain this statement so until as such times as he does then we will not know whether he holds to a rather sinister ideaology of strength (as his statement alludes to) or otherwise.

For those who are unaware...there is a rise in neo nazi support in not only Germany but also Poland and the Ukraine....and these guys also work out as strength is worshipped by them. Statements such as "genetically superior humanbeings" are also the spoutings of these nutcases. I would not wish to suggest without any form of evidence what Wolfgang actually means untill he explains it but I will always have the right to challenge even the smallest hint of any agreement to this form of extremism.But I have to ask, where is Wolfgang?

He made the statement and he can explain it.

Peter

PS.....There are people whom I know who consider that the big Z is in fact clean......who knows.

[Wolfgang Hasenmaier]

Peter,

I remember reading of stones and strength and therefor am certain that you are a fine man of deep character. Therefor I take any effort in an answer. Genetically superior human beings is related solely to strength genetics-nothing less and nothing more. It`s a fact that there are people who have better genetics there. The big Z is genetical superior to me strengthwise. So is Terry Hollands. So are many others although I benched a drugfree 385 and deepsquatted a drugfree 500.

In terms of fair play among nations, if you care for such fairness as a nonracist that I hope you are, Peter:
I would welcome that we start see a few movies and documentaries in regard to the horrible genocides committed by other nations, not "solely by Germany..."
- about "Uncle Joe Stalin" who murdered 55 million human beings, all of them his countrymen. Russians are as precious as Germans or as Jews or blacks, you agree with me, Peter? Or not?
- about the British Empire colones, in regards to genocides in India, USA and Africa. I knew of no single UK holocaust until age 44, how come..? Racist media in the UK with antiGerman bias?
- about the Armenian Holcoaust, 1-2 mio Armenians, murdered by Turks.
- about 65 mio Chinese getting murdered by fomer Hippie Idol Mao
- about Ireland "left alone" from England http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Famine_(Ireland)
- about 100 mio + Russians murdered by Ivan the Terrible and some other scum czar)
- what about 1 million native Americans coming from 75 million predecessors in the 16 th century, where is Hollywood and the media?

We Germans get rubbed it in our system for 7 decades from our own media on a daily base that Germany has committed huge crimes in the last century. That is true and it`s good that we get it shoved down our throat without mercy. It makes us considerably less self-delusional than you, the Brits. As a result we have far less nazis than you. The funny thing is that we Germans like the Brits because you helped free us from a dictator and because of your abilities and mentality. We love your music, your humour, your actors and even like your queen.

In terms of my approach about it:
I have beaten up 2 nazi skinheads in Prenzlauer Berg in 1992 - quarter of Berlin to prevent them from beating up a 110 lbs guy who "looked different".
I have convicted another nazi skinhead (him with a history of viloence) in terms of him committing a huge theft of 200 grands+, he got a 2 year sentence as a result.

[Wolfgang Hasenmaier]

"Of stones and strength" is written by Mr. Jeck and Peter Martin, I bought it quiet a few years ago.

[Mike Corlett]

Geneticwise
A former US strongman once pressed a new world record in the max weight overhead press of a natural stone for 1 rep and did it for 5 (!) reps at a strongman contest in Netherlands, pressed strictly, just arms...301 lbs of granite. I have it on DVD. He moved it like a toy. He afterwards joked to the frustrated cometitors: I thought it would be for reps.. He is rumoured to have done a log press of 400 lbs for 4 or 5 reps as well. Name escapes me at the moment but he trained with Ed Coan in 2003 and worked 80-90 hours* a week construction on occasions for several months in a row. On his 1 st of 2nd try ever at powerlifting he did a 2300 lbs+ IPF quality total.Proves once again that there are men with superhuman genetics. Z is cut from the same cloth.

I had no idea that there was a set of rules for the way people from Germany could talk, compared to the rest of the world.

I just presumed, because English would not be Wolfgang's first language, that the words were put together a little differently than a native English speaker. I was a bit surprised by the backlash that followed.

I remember about 6 or 7 years ago, over on the Gripboard, I think it was David Horne who said, in reference to grip competitors, something like "just wait until the Eastern Europeans get in this sport". I took it to imply that many believe there are some very strong guys from Eastern Europe. Is there something wrong with that? Being an American, and having been born after WWII, I am not going to be as sensitive as some others. I think that Wolf's last post should have removed any doubt as to what he meant. What does "being an American" have to do with anything? With the exception of 9/11 and Pearl Harbor, we have been more insulated than most countries, therefore we are surprised when something like this comes up.

[Joe Keenan]

Peter,

I remember reading of stones and strength and therefor am certain that you are a fine man of deep character. Therefor I take any effort in an answer. Genetically superior human beings is related solely to strength genetics-nothing less and nothing more. It`s a fact that there are people who have better genetics there. The big Z is genetical superior to me strengthwise. So is Terry Hollands. So are many others although I benched a drugfree 385 and deepsquatted a drugfree 500.

In terms of fair play among nations, if you care for such fairness as a nonracist that I hope you are, Peter:
I would welcome that we start see a few movies and documentaries in regard to the horrible genocides committed by other nations, not "solely by Germany..."
- about "Uncle Joe Stalin" who murdered 55 million human beings, all of them his countrymen. Russians are as precious as Germans or as Jews or blacks, you agree with me, Peter? Or not?
- about the British Empire colones, in regards to genocides in India, USA and Africa. I knew of no single UK holocaust until age 44, how come..? Racist media in the UK with antiGerman bias?
- about the Armenian Holcoaust, 1-2 mio Armenians, murdered by Turks.
- about 65 mio Chinese getting murdered by fomer Hippie Idol Mao
- about Ireland "left alone" from England http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Famine_(Ireland (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Famine_%28Ireland))
- about 100 mio + Russians murdered by Ivan the Terrible and some other scum czar)
- what about 1 million native Americans coming from 75 million predecessors in the 16 th century, where is Hollywood and the media?

We Germans get rubbed it in our system for 7 decades from our own media on a daily base that Germany has committed huge crimes in the last century. That is true and it`s good that we get it shoved down our throat without mercy. It makes us considerably less self-delusional than you, the Brits. As a result we have far less nazis than you. The funny thing is that we Germans like the Brits because you helped free us from a dictator and because of your abilities and mentality. We love your music, your humour, your actors and even like your queen.

In terms of my approach about it:
I have beaten up 2 nazi skinheads in Prenzlauer Berg in 1992 - quarter of Berlin to prevent them from beating up a 110 lbs guy who "looked different".
I have convicted another nazi skinhead (him with a history of viloence) in terms of him committing a huge theft of 200 grands+, he got a 2 year sentence as a result.

Are you aware the Queen is German? Here's a funny article regarding the "English" royal family. http://www.irishdemocrat.co.uk/features/royalty/

[Peter Martin]

Wolfgang,

I got timed out on a rather long reply so here is the short version......I am sure you can agree with me that in reading your statement regarding genetics that eyebrows could have and were indeed raised. It could have been perceived as having sinister undertones however you have dissproved that in your reply which more than proves yout orientation. I have no probems now with the comment other than that I dissagree with the concept of a strength gene and that influencial factors have more a part to play in an individuals strength than the basic genetics of, say for example body size.


First time I have been called a dellusional Brit though considering that my will clearly gives my next of kin to have the following on my gravestone....Scottish by Birth, British by Law, Highlander by the grace of God....perhaps fellow Gaels (we transcend nationality) like Joe will understand.

Anyway I am so glad you have cleared up the statement and allieviated any concerns.....now back to the thread.


Did you read the comment about Big Z being perhaps Drug Free? No one but him will know the answer but considering it is true, then it is a testement to strength not requiring any man made assistance along the way.


Peter


PS for Joe.....point to ponder with..... Scotland has never had a Queen Elizabeth until the present....How is she number 2.

[Wolfgang Hasenmaier]

I see, my hairdresser is a Scotsman, too. A goodnatured bloke but he wouldn`t take lightly to be called anyone but a Scotsman :)

I terms of genetics here is my unpolitical opinion

Extreme example: Mills Darden lived in the 19 th century anmd died in 1857. Pics on the web show a circus fatman, not him. As an acromegalic giant of 7 foot 6 inches and 800-1100 lbs, Mills would have dwarfed André the Giant (7 foot and 370-470 lbs and certainly not capable of 10 min of farm work at the latter weight) Mills worked heavy physcial labor all day long. He owned a farm in North Carolina. Some people think that he was -far- stronger than any strongman in terms of functional strength. The idea is the following: Put a 500-800 lbs weight vest on a pro strongman and let him do farm work all day long. He will break down within minutes.

On a smaller scale I had to train 2 years to bench press 300 lbs raw at age 18. A buddy of mine benched 300 lbs the 1 st time he touched a weight. 3,5 years later he benched 573 lbs raw. 5 workouts within a few months and he squatted close to 650 lbs. Karl Norberg, who benched a raw 400 at age 80, had his skin healing 3 times faster than other men his age. Genetics are a huge factor. That is my opinion.

I accept and welcome other ideas. That`s the only way I can expand my horizon :)

[Joe Keenan]

Peter I understand, "Though the sky above may change, not so the heart, the soul of those who cross the wine dark sea." Horace (must of been a Gael!) Regarding the post scriptus *wine at hand, I smile, something to mull, nothing like wine and mulling*

Wolfgang, as you are no doubt aware to some extent almost all things can be expressed on a bell curve, strength is one. Some are smashed up against the Y axis (moi), most are distributed along the bell but there are some way out from the Y. No doubt genetics are a huge factor, for example, Ed Coan was born to deadlift and squat, short legs, long arms, torso of a man much taller. Nordberg is a legend, although part of that might of been nutrition, lard sandwiches being the true breakfast of champions! Don't know if you're ever read The Super Athletes but it sounds right up your alley. I try to enjoy strength in all its manifestations but like Peter I fell "genetics" is an over used term. It can be used post hoc to explain just about anything. The indomitable will of man always leaves me humbled though:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=AyIzAzmMyFk

[Roger Davis]

A very interesting thread.

Undoubtedly an individuals genetics make a vast difference to the levels of sport (or academic achievements) they will be able to participate at.

My short levers and stocky body type enabled me to become a slightly above average powerlifter, but I am finding said bodytype a limiting factor in my marathon training, where the tall skinny boys leave me in their dust...

We have just had a little understated sporting event in Britain that showcased the worlds best athletes, certainly they had genetics most suited to the sport they had chosen (or had chosen for them), but also had the determination to make the best of that opportunity ... I won't even get into the drug debate at this moment

Usain Bolt would never be a world class marathon runner, or Mo farrel a world class sprinter, slow twitch, fast twitch muscle fibres are handed out at birth.

The Big Z would be pretty average at swimming, long distance running or gymnastics I would imagine

Picking up on the very relevant point made by Joe above, genetics will only get you so far, it is the human spirit that makes champions, never giving up, going the next step and overcoming adversity.

We have another little sporting event in Britain in the next few weeks, the paraOlympics, where individuals who really have been given a poor deck of cards by genetics, or accident, truely show the defining characteristic of humanity .. to quote Joe ... The indomitable will of man

These individuals are the real inspiration of what a person can achieve, and I am glad to report that all 2.5 Million tickets to watch these inspirational athletes have sold out in Britain (unlike China where only 180,000 were sold)

Lets hope that the international media gives them some airtime , to me they provide even more of an inspiration than the event that went before and clearly state .. genetics or not ... everybody can achieve if they want it enough and are prepared to work.

regards

Roger

[Wolfgang Hasenmaier]

The indomitable will is one of the most fascinating aspects of human beings.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miracle_in_the_Andes:_72_Days_on_the_Mountain_and_ My_Long_Trek_Home

I saw a documentary about it on biography channel, the (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miracle_in_the_Andes:_72_Days_on_the_Mountain_and_ My_Long_Trek_Home) author rescued several lifes. Especially moving is what made him move forward through 70+ days of unimaginable hell.

[Peter Martin]

Wolfgang,

A terrrific story of human endeavour but underpinning it is self will and determination. In relation to the big Z it is likely that he has this in abundance as sometimes raw strength requires just that bit more. It may be the factors that seperate the men from the boys.

Peter