Red Nail: Rule Change?!

[Randall Strossen]

IronMind has been asked to consider tightening the rules for certifying on the Red Nail 1) to eliminate the way guys effectively extend the length of the nail with their pads and also 2) to rein in the crushing style used to start the bend.

Anyone have any thoughts on this, please?

[Kevin McFadden]

Can you clarify what you mean in #1 and #2? What new rules can be applied to change the way people apply the wraps or the style they use to bend the nail?

[Dave Lemanczyk]

IronMind has been asked to consider tightening the rules for certifying on the Red Nail 1) to eliminate the way guys effectively extend the length of the nail with their pads and also 2) to rein in the crushing style used to start the bend.

Anyone have any thoughts on this, please?

I like it Randy, very cool idea. I think the pads or wraps should have to touch each other on short bars. If the pads touch it reduces the length of the bar to what it is thus limiting mechanical advantage (as you mentioned) and it also prevents the pushing and folding of the nail (as opposed to the wrist strength necessary to bend it using the strength of wrist supintation, flexion and deviation movements that encompass what nail bending as a feat of strength represents). I am for it. There are many people I have seen bending nails with the push and fold method that couldn't do anything with a 60D spike had you asked them to use the form I have written in this paragraph. My .02

[Randall Strossen]

Can you clarify what you mean in #1 and #2? What new rules can be applied to change the way people apply the wraps or the style they use to bend the nail?

Kevin -

Dave L's post above captures the essence of the idea: if the pads and the first fingers had to be in contact at the start of the bend, it would eliminate the crushing style, or what I call, "practicing for crucifixion."

[Kevin McFadden]

Randall,

I figured that's what you were getting at. Even though I don't bend in the double overhand style, I don't think the rules should be changed. The biggest problem that I would have with the change is that people that certed under the new rules would be placed on the same list as people that certed under the old rules. I also think the change is not necessary. If it were that easy to just "fold" the bar, then a lot more people would be certifying.

[Bob Lipinski]

I must be horrible with the IM pads, because there is no way I get extra leverage on them.

[Seth Collins]

Randall -

I agree with Dave L. I'm for it 100%.

Seth

[Jason Steeves]

I must be horrible with the IM pads, because there is no way I get extra leverage on them.

+1. I'm in the same boat Bob. The pads don't allow themselves to be used effectively as "levers" as suede and leather can be.

I also think if there's going to be a step change in the cert process it should be a separate list.

One way around this is to just list the style used for the cert on the list. Anyone who's on there would easily know the differences between the styles.

[Randall Strossen]

On the list, this is analogous to what we have lived with on the CoC grippers - most guys focus on the when the credit card rule was added, but each of the rules was added over a period of time.

I think the analogy continues in that not everyone prior to this point would have used this other bending style - just as not everyone deep set the grippers prior to the credit card rule.

Still, since this other style is becoming increasingly common, if we were to make a change (add a new rule), I'd say that it should be sooner rather than later or we'll increase the chances of mixing apples and oranges.

[Casey Emery]

Interesting, I myself have never mastered the Iron mind pads to gain any leverage on a bar. The pads themselfs offer far less of an advantage and far less comfort that other types of wraps. I would venture to say the using Ironmind wraps in any style on a red nail is no easy feat and requires a ton of hard work and dedication, tough fingers.
I would like to hear what PEOPLE WHO ARE ALREADY ON THE RED NAIL ROSTER think about a rule change.
Rule changes on a historical list such as this, in my opinion, compromises the integrity of the list and those on it. Have the rules of the Dennie stones or Inver stone ever changed ?
Also, instead of a rule change, perhaps a thicker Ironmind bar, a 3/8 Ironmind nail. See who really is the cream of the crop.

[Dave Lemanczyk]

Hey Casey - The reason you don't gain any leverage with ironmind pads is because you don't actually grip the pads and hold them in place during a bend. This is why you wrap them up and then put rubber bands on to keep them secure. By doing that you miss out on a HUGE part of what it takes to bend steel. The rubber band wrap/push and fold techniques that you and many other guys use may get steel bent but it's not the same as good old fashioned wrist torque. Whether I am on the red nail roster or not, I don't think too may guys can bend Grade 5 Bolts with the pads touching and hands touching at the start of a bend. Think about it.

Can you bend a Grade 5 Bolt like this?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hapYIP13MwI

If you can, kick a**, I'd like to see the video. Good luck with your wrist training. Save the rubber bands for little children and green plastic army men.

[Randall Strossen]

Interesting, I myself have never mastered the Iron mind pads to gain any leverage on a bar. The pads themselfs offer far less of an advantage and far less comfort that other types of wraps. I would venture to say the using Ironmind wraps in any style on a red nail is no easy feat and requires a ton of hard work and dedication, tough fingers.

When we (at IronMind) were first wrestling with this bending-style question and the possibility of managing it as described above, I think it was Steve McGranahan who first said to me something like, "Just require IM bending pads and that will solve most of the problem," so he'd be really happy to read what you just posted.

Yes, in a perfect world, everything would stay constant, but in the real world, things, including rules, evolve. The situation here is the same as with the grippers - the reason for adopting the rule change would be to preserve the tradition if there is the feeling that recent changes in technique might compromise the spirit of this feat of strength.

Incidentally, not sure whether you followed the Dinnie Stone thread, but talking about how it's been lifted over time, you'd find this very interesting.

[Casey Emery]

Good bend Dave ! I don't know if I can do that or not, I will have to give that a go and see what happens. As far as the rubber bands go, maybe you can wrap up a red nail with some Ironmind pads with rubber bands and show how easy it is.

[Kevin McFadden]

Dave,

Why are you assuming that few can bend grade 5 bolts with the pads touching? There are more than a few bending bigger steel than that using Ironmind pads and no rubber bands.

[Jedd Johnson]

Some thoughts:

RE: IronMind has been asked to consider tightening the rules for certifying on the Red Nail

- Who asked you to consider this? A certified Red Nail Bender? A Historian?

RE: 1) to eliminate the way guys effectively extend the length of the nail with their pads and also

- I don't think IM Pads do this nearly to the extent that leather wraps and IMP/Towel combinations do. I would ask for caution in this however. Many of the edges of Red Nails are very sharp and I would hate for someone to get sliced open due to a wrap sliding around during a bend. With the disallowing of chalk between the bar and the IMPad, movement can happen very easily.

RE: 2) to rein in the crushing style used to start the bend.

- Would this be to put the emphasis more on wrist / forearm / grip strength? If so, at what point would the transition to the crush-down phase be permitted in order to move through the sweep and into the 2" range? The reason I ask is eventually the Bend becomes an exercise in upper body strength, regardless of starting technique. If the objective is to make the Red Nail cert a wrist / forearm / grip test of strength, then it may be wise to use only Reverse Technique and to adapt the 40 degrees in 30 seconds rules. However, even Reverse Technique involves upper body strength, just not to such a high degree.

- Would this change be applied just to the Double Overhand starting position? With the right training, Double Underhand involves very similar upper body recruitment. But like I said, even success with the Reverse Technique is dependent on Upper Body Strength.

- Thanks for taking the feedback of past Red Nail benders into consideration for this.

RE: further discussion on the proposed change

- I am highly interested in seeing how this pans out for two reasons. First, I work with many benders to develop their skills either indirectly through my products or directly through coaching and training programs. Second, if changes in the programs I use need to be made, it could be a large amount of work. Randall, I'd like to offer help in gathering feedback, or to help out in any way I can.

Jedd

[Jedd Johnson]

Casey and Kevin,

Please don't bother with this line of conversation.

Let's focus on the matter at hand. Dr. Strossen is looking for feedback on an important decision.

Jedd

[Dave Lemanczyk]

Good bend Dave ! I don't know if I can do that or not, I will have to give that a go and see what happens. As far as the rubber bands go, maybe you can wrap up a red nail with some Ironmind pads with rubber bands and show how easy it is.

There's no chance I will ever wrap up a nail then do the push and fold technique. I can tell you that I have tried to bend a 5/16 cold rold steel spike the same size as the red nail with the form I use and cannot bend it. No excuses, my wrists just not strong enough to do it yet. Thanx for the shout man.

@ Kevin - I see more videos of guys wrapping up with rubber bands than not. Don't you? It's that simple. Not assuming at all. Actually, I am going off what I see. Seriously, just take a look around at steel bending videos and I am sure we can come to an agreement on that one.

@ Jedd - Kevin and Casey have the ability and power to make up their own minds on what they want to respond to and how to respond. There's certainly no need to tell them what to do right?

[Jedd Johnson]

Like I said, Dave, my only interest in this thread is seeing the decision that is made regarding the wraps.

Jedd

[Kevin McFadden]

Some thoughts:

RE: IronMind has been asked to consider tightening the rules for certifying on the Red Nail

- Who asked you to consider this? A certified Red Nail Bender? A Historian?

RE: 1) to eliminate the way guys effectively extend the length of the nail with their pads and also

- I don't think IM Pads do this nearly to the extent that leather wraps and IMP/Towel combinations do. I would ask for caution in this however. Many of the edges of Red Nails are very sharp and I would hate for someone to get sliced open due to a wrap sliding around during a bend. With the disallowing of chalk between the bar and the IMPad, movement can happen very easily.

RE: 2) to rein in the crushing style used to start the bend.

- Would this be to put the emphasis more on wrist / forearm / grip strength? If so, at what point would the transition to the crush-down phase be permitted in order to move through the sweep and into the 2" range? The reason I ask is eventually the Bend becomes an exercise in upper body strength, regardless of starting technique. If the objective is to make the Red Nail cert a wrist / forearm / grip test of strength, then it may be wise to use only Reverse Technique and to adapt the 40 degrees in 30 seconds rules. However, even Reverse Technique involves upper body strength, just not to such a high degree.

- Would this change be applied just to the Double Overhand starting position? With the right training, Double Underhand involves very similar upper body recruitment. But like I said, even success with the Reverse Technique is dependent on Upper Body Strength.

- Thanks for taking the feedback of past Red Nail benders into consideration for this.

RE: further discussion on the proposed change

- I am highly interested in seeing how this pans out for two reasons. First, I work with many benders to develop their skills either indirectly through my products or directly through coaching and training programs. Second, if changes in the programs I use need to be made, it could be a large amount of work. Randall, I'd like to offer help in gathering feedback, or to help out in any way I can.

Jedd

I agree with everything said in this post.

[David Wigren]

Rule changes on a historical list such as this, in my opinion, compromises the integrity of the list and those on it.

Casey said it all here.
I certed on the red nail back in Jan 08 and will ask to have my name removed from the list if any significant change is made.

I bend in all styles with all wraps. I've used everything between triple wraps down to no wraps. And I can tell you that the "crucification" style can still be effectively used with wraps touching.
In fact according to physics it should be easier with wraps touching. At least if your talking about sheer force required to bend the nail. Now agreed mechanically it is probably easier for the body to bend with wraps on the ends. But I have plans to see if I can develop my "crucification" style with wraps touching to see if it can surpass my "crucification" style with wraps on the ends. I'f I can get the technique right for it and I can align the body to mechanically do it, it should actually make it easier.
If you can believe that.

[Randall Strossen]

Jedd -

Sorry, but I don't know how to make do this neatly, so I copied your post and plugged in the answers/more questions. I put *** by my replies to make them easier to find.

Hope you can follow my answers - thanks much for your comments and questions! :;tu)




Some thoughts:

RE: IronMind has been asked to consider tightening the rules for certifying on the Red Nail

- Who asked you to consider this? A certified Red Nail Bender? A Historian?

***Over the years, we've discussed this with more than one person who is certified, and I can think of one historian I approached about this when I was first weighing what to do. Most recently, the question surfaced from a bending enthusiast who would fit neither of these groups, though.


RE: 1) to eliminate the way guys effectively extend the length of the nail with their pads and also - I don't think IM Pads do this nearly to the extent that leather wraps and IMP/Towel combinations do.

***Good to hear that maybe this is working as that was our intention with that rule.


I would ask for caution in this however. Many of the edges of Red Nails are very sharp and I would hate for someone to get sliced open due to a wrap sliding around during a bend.

***We would too!


With the disallowing of chalk between the bar and the IMPad, movement can happen very easily.

***Increased risk of injury is one of the reasons I dubbed that style "practicing for crucifixion." We do allow chalk and I'm sure someone can prove me wrong if he tries, but I've never seen an IM pad slip when used for what I would call a traditional style bend. Incidentally, when I'm talking injury, I'm not just concerned about lacerations and puncture wounds: I'm also concerned about soft tissue/nerve damage.



RE: 2) to rein in the crushing style used to start the bend.

- Would this be to put the emphasis more on wrist / forearm / grip strength?

***Yes, that would be the idea as that's what comes into play when performing a short bend in the traditional style.



If so, at what point would the transition to the crush-down phase be permitted in order to move through the sweep and into the 2" range?

***This is where it could get sticky, so maybe you have some recommendations. I'd for sure say that after something in the 90-degree range, it would be fine, but what you think, please?



The reason I ask is eventually the Bend becomes an exercise in upper body strength, regardless of starting technique.

***Yes - absolutely, and one could argue that this other style simply morphs the challenge into some along those line. However, maybe the traditionalists would replay that this would better be kept in the realm of longer bends.



If the objective is to make the Red Nail cert a wrist / forearm / grip test of strength, then it may be wise to use only Reverse Technique and to adapt the 40 degrees in 30 seconds rules. However, even Reverse Technique involves upper body strength, just not to such a high degree.

- Would this change be applied just to the Double Overhand starting position? With the right training, Double Underhand involves very similar upper body recruitment. But like I said, even success with the Reverse Technique is dependent on Upper Body Strength.

***I'd say we want the rule to work for all bending styles - I believe that good rules can cover a lot of specifics and so you don't need a lot of them.



- Thanks for taking the feedback of past Red Nail benders into consideration for this.

***You are very welcome - we (at IronMind) want to hear what you guys think about this.



RE: further discussion on the proposed change

- I am highly interested in seeing how this pans out for two reasons. First, I work with many benders to develop their skills either indirectly through my products or directly through coaching and training programs.

***Understood - you've been a big force behind the increased interest in bending and that's super.


Second, if changes in the programs I use need to be made, it could be a large amount of work.

***Hopefully not, but I know what you mean.


Randall, I'd like to offer help in gathering feedback, or to help out in any way I can.

***Jedd, thanks a million - you already helped a lot with these questions and comments.


Jedd

[Randall Strossen]

Casey said it all here.
I certed on the red nail back in Jan 08 and will ask to have my name removed from the list if any significant change is made.


This is important: We had one guy do this on the CoC No. 3 list following institution of the credit card rule - I didn't think this was necessary and IronMind explained that we considered everyone on the list to have earned his slot:

http://www.ironmind.com/ironmind/opencms/Articles/2004/Mar/Captains_of_Crushx_Certification_No_Second-Class_Citizens.html

What do guys think about this? My feeling is that, once again, nobody needs to withdraw, etc., but if someone wants to, they can do that.

[David Wigren]

This is important: We had one guy do this on the CoC No. 3 list following institution of the credit card rule - I didn't think this was necessary and IronMind explained that we considered everyone on the list to have earned his slot:

http://www.ironmind.com/ironmind/opencms/Articles/2004/Mar/Captains_of_Crushx_Certification_No_Second-Class_Citizens.html

What do guys think about this? My feeling is that, once again, nobody needs to withdraw, etc., but if someone wants to, they can do that.

That's just how I feel about it. I bent all my three red nails with the double overhand style with wraps on the ends. One of them was crushed down barehanded though (just the very last part).
But if the new rules says that the wraps must be touching, then my old cert simply didn't pass the rules and should therefor be removed.
However that doesn't mean that I wouldn't do it with the new rules. But then again what's to say that the rules wouldn't get changed later on again. Maybe I should wait a year or two and just do it barehanded

[Jedd Johnson]

***Over the years, we've discussed this with more than one person who is certified, and I can think of one historian I approached about this when I was first weighing what to do. Most recently, the question surfaced from a bending enthusiast who would fit neither of these groups, though.

- Noted. Thanks.

***Good to hear that maybe this is working as that was our intention with that rule.

***Increased risk of injury is one of the reasons I dubbed that style "practicing for crucifixion." We do allow chalk and I'm sure someone can prove me wrong if he tries, but I've never seen an IM pad slip when used for what I would call a traditional style bend. Incidentally, when I'm talking injury, I'm not just concerned about lacerations and puncture wounds: I'm also concerned about soft tissue/nerve damage.

- So you allow chalk to be packed into the crevices of the wrap? I thought only slight chalk in order to control moisture on the hands and incidental chalk from past bends was the only amount of chalk used?

- RE: Slippage - When little chalk is used with IMPads, the wraps will indeed slip, especially around the circumference of the bar. When under high tension and the wraps slip, injuries are very common to not only the hands/wrists, but also the upper body due to the acceleration followed by the attempt to decelerate - major recoil goes on when this happens. I imaging the chances for this slippage to result in a cut from the end of the bar only increases if less of the wrap is allowed to be positioned over the ends than what is currently allowed, and I would also imagine the chance for a slip increases when the bar being bent is smaller, like a blue nail for instance, because it becomes even more difficult to get a tight wrap.

***Yes, that would be the idea (to put the emphasis more on wrist / forearm / grip strength) as that's what comes into play when performing a short bend in the traditional style.

- I am wondering if you have a video of "traditional style"? This could help clear up confusion, then we can all comment on it

- One particular reason I am having trouble invisioning this is because I started bending in 2002 and almost everyone used Reverse Style. By 2004, almost everyone used Double Overhand. This all evolved at a fast rate, especially once Nathan Holle bent the Red with this technique and once Pat Povilaitis began using the Double Overhand technique to start bends instead of the Reverse Style.


***This is where it could get sticky, so maybe you have some recommendations. (If so, at what point would the transition to the crush-down phase be permitted in order to move through the sweep and into the 2" range? ) I'd for sure say that after something in the 90-degree range, it would be fine, but what you think, please?

- At first thought, getting the bar to the 90-degree range would be nearly physically impossible for me with my hand size. It seems like I would have to unwrap one hand and literally push against the nail with my palm as I sit here thinking about it, so I think a wider angle would be needed.

- I think before we decide a legal angle to transition to crush down, we should first define the "traditional" style.


*** (...eventually the Bend becomes an exercise in upper body strength, regardless of starting technique) Yes - absolutely, and one could argue that this other style simply morphs the challenge into some along those line. However, maybe the traditionalists would replay that this would better be kept in the realm of longer bends.

- Regarding longer bends, I don't know many people who remain in a non-braced position when bending things over 8 inches, so I am wondering if maybe it is an extra topic that should be saved until later.

***I'd say we want the rule to work for all bending styles - I believe that good rules can cover a lot of specifics and so you don't need a lot of them.

- I think I agree. Good point.

***You are very welcome - we (at IronMind) want to hear what you guys think about this.

- Outstanding

***Understood - you've been a big force behind the increased interest in bending and that's super.

- Thank you.

***Hopefully not, but I know what you mean.

- Hey, if there's work to be done, so be it. I have been meaning to enhance some of my materials and this could be the catalyst I need to take action on that !

***Jedd, thanks a million - you already helped a lot with these questions and comments.

- Let me know if you would like any other assistance. I am here to help the sport grow and help the people who get involved stay safe so they can enjoy it for years without injury.

Jedd

[Randall Strossen]

Jedd -

I know some guys probably have special chalking techniques whether saved for full moons always on the ready, but we've tried to keep the rule simple: chalk is ok, but you can't use rubber bands.

Wish I did have a video, but I am thinking along the lines of bends that are double overhand, starting with the hands in contact, but we don't want to lock out other bending styles - this is where I would make the distinction between the letter and the spirit of the rules . . . we want to maintain the tradition, but need to allow flexibility for new developments or alternative ways of doing things, as long as they don't compromise the original spirit or purpose of the challenge.

Maybe you or someone else would like to make a video that illustrates what we're discussing because you're right, it might make it easier to follow the conversation and for everyone to decide the best way to go with this.

Yes, absolutely about how bending styles have evolved - some of you guys who are really into bending can probably have an entire conversation now just using the initials of your preferred styles.

Ouch - I don't want to encourage barehanded bending! I put 90 out there as a degree of bend it would seem to me that nobody would quibble with on the deep side - I actually think something more like 45 would be good enough because that shows that the start was made via wrist strength (along with everything else) and finishing it off that point by moving the hands out and crushing it should not be a bone of contention. Would you agree with that?

Yes, about saving longer bends for another thread - this one is already a handful as is.

Thanks much.

[Jedd Johnson]

(RS) I know some guys probably have special chalking techniques whether saved for full moons always on the ready, but we've tried to keep the rule simple: chalk is ok, but you can't use rubber bands.

(JJ) I was first taught how to chalk the wraps by Steve McGranahan and James "Shrug" Smith in 2004. It may have been my misunderstanding on the chalk, so that is my bad.

(RS) Wish I did have a video, but I am thinking along the lines of bends that are double overhand, starting with the hands in contact,

(JJ) When you say hands, are you referring to the knuckles touching at the beginning or just a couple of fingers? There is a dramatic difference.

(RS) but we don't want to lock out other bending styles - this is where I would make the distinction between the letter and the spirit of the rules . . . we want to maintain the tradition, but need to allow flexibility for new developments or alternative ways of doing things, as long as they don't compromise the original spirit or purpose of the challenge.

(JJ) I hear you on letter vs. spirit - something would have to be decided as well about the Double Under style. This can also be modified to incorporate the upper body over just the wrists.

(RS) Maybe you or someone else would like to make a video that illustrates what we're discussing because you're right, it might make it easier to follow the conversation and for everyone to decide the best way to go with this.

(JJ) I would be glad to try and to post it here. However, I can't promise that right now, because I have an injury and I am trying to avoid anything that could make matters worse.

(RS) Yes, absolutely about how bending styles have evolved - some of you guys who are really into bending can probably have an entire conversation now just using the initials of your preferred styles.

(JJ) Yes and I think there is currently a movement to define more styles and adapt to those specific styles, not just calling all Double Overhand the same, but rather defining the subtle differences and shooting for excellence in all of them

(RS) Ouch - I don't want to encourage barehanded bending! I put 90 out there as a degree of bend it would seem to me that nobody would quibble with on the deep side - I actually think something more like 45 would be good enough because that shows that the start was made via wrist strength (along with everything else) and finishing it off that point by moving the hands out and crushing it should not be a bone of contention. Would you agree with that?

(JJ) 45 degrees seems a bit more realistic, I think

(RS) Yes, about saving longer bends for another thread - this one is already a handful as is.

(JJ) Agreed

[Randall Strossen]

(JJ) When you say hands, are you referring to the knuckles touching at the beginning or just a couple of fingers? There is a dramatic difference.


Jedd -

Not sure how most of the advocates of something along these lines would define it, but I think when John Brookfield and I were kicking this around we thought it would be the first finger and the thumb - because we were focusing on double overhand. Paralleling this, for double underhand, then, it would be the edges of the hand making contact, along with the pinkies.

Maybe it's a good time to open things back up in terms of the general idea of doing something like this, along with reviewing details such as this.

[Jedd Johnson]

I think when John Brookfield and I were kicking this around we thought it would be the first finger and the thumb.


- The fingers and thumbs touching one another through the duration of the kink or just for the start and then the hands would not be allowed to separate during the kink?




for double underhand, then, it would be the edges of the hand making contact, along with the pinkies

- Would this be the starting point and then some separating during the kink? Thanks.

[David Wigren]

Jedd -

Not sure how most of the advocates of something along these lines would define it, but I think when John Brookfield and I were kicking this around we thought it would be the first finger and the thumb - because we were focusing on double overhand. Paralleling this, for double underhand, then, it would be the edges of the hand making contact, along with the pinkies.

Maybe it's a good time to open things back up in terms of the general idea of doing something like this, along with reviewing details such as this.

Even though this might be a fresh subject it's not a new idea. Some of us had the idea to try and form a list for "slim style" bending. Which is basically what you guys are talking about now, Double overhand with close grip and wraps touching.
Well after giving this alot of thought and consideration we tried to come up with some rules regarding hand placement. We had the very same idea of fingers/knuckles/thumbs touching.
I experimented with it ALOT and after a while I realized that it wouldn't be possible to reinforce those rules. So I buried the whole "Slim style" idea.
Trust me on this, rules about finger/thumb/knuckle placement will be impossible to inforce, therefor there shouldn't be any. Because EVERYONE certing WILL get around it, whether they intend to or not. Trust me on that.
The only thing that IS going to work is a wrap placement rule. Like having the wraps touch in the middle like some has mentioned earlier. But then again I can still use the same "folding" technique with wraps touching. So what will be the difference?

IMO there is no need to change anything. Change will only cause historical inaccuracy about the list. And hurt the integrity of the list and the people on it.

[AaronCorcorran]

I don't think a rule change would be necessary in my honest opinion. Because of the nature of a bend with the IM pads and especially without rubber bands. I know that my form is quite a bit different on Double Overhand bends with IM pads than say suede pads even though it may look very similar or the same to someone watching the bends. The force application with IM pads has to be through the wrists and there is very little pressing together force if any like you would have with double leather wraps. Its just too painful and pointless to even try on the initial kink. One pretty much has to choke up on the bar compared to a bend with leather wraps. I believe that requiring them to be touching in the middle on a 7" bar is potentially inviting injury by slippage because there is not very much extra wrap past the end of the bar at that point. Requiring the knuckles to be touching with anything other than DU is biomechanically not functional. Without bands the wraps are much looser and this alone limits force application via pain. These of course are my own opinions.

I myself am partial to the Double overhand style because its the only unbraced style that doesn't flare up my bad wrist. But even so I'm pretty sure I could get movement on a Red nail with IM pads touching using the Reverse style. I've done 1/4" square that is just a smidge easier than a typical red nail in IM pads in that style lately and I'm rarely even bending these days.

- Aaron

[Randall Strossen]

I experimented with it ALOT and after a while I realized that it wouldn't be possible to reinforce those rules. So I buried the whole "Slim style" idea.
Trust me on this, rules about finger/thumb/knuckle placement will be impossible to inforce, therefor there shouldn't be any. Because EVERYONE certing WILL get around it, whether they intend to or not. Trust me on that.


David -

What kind of things went wrong in terms of trying to enforce this, please?


Jedd -

It would only be for the start, with the idea that the hands would separate as the bend progressed - you'd probably have to require that some contact was maintained until you reached the point of the bend when you were allowed to reposition the hands.


Aaron -


Thanks much for running through all of this detail.

This is why the idea of managing things by limiting the pads was so appealing: it eliminated the need for all these additional requirements - rules that will give all of us a headache to read, follow and enforce - but still did a pretty good job of eliminating the bends we would be most interested in eliminating.

I'm not saying that we shouldn't address this just because it's tough, but there's no need to beat our heads against a wall for no reason, either.

[AaronCorcorran]

The amount of force utilization reduction is sizable and real with the IM pads and no bands as the rules stand now. From the time I bent my first Red Nail in Leather wraps to the time I certified was at least a year. I was training hard and getting stronger that entire time. The day I certified on the red nail I also bent a 6" x 5/16 Stainless bar in Leather wraps as well as a couple 7x 3/8 CRS bars. That level of strength increase over the Red Nail was what I required in order to be able to bend one in IM wraps without bands using the Double Overhand technique. To the uninitiated those may not seem like much tougher bends but trust me there is considerable difference between those bends and my original Red Nail bent in leather wraps. Guys being able to certify on the Red nail with the current rules in less time than that with DO technique or otherwise are either very special or are working very hard training specifically for this bend and possibly both.

- Aaron

[Chris Rice]

I try to stay out of bending arguments because the lines between what is acceptable and what is not blurs so much it's more like a continuum than a line. I can remember this same and several similar discussions over the years on different forums. Type of wraps, size of wraps, placement of wraps, one or two wraps, chalk on the wraps - and on and on. Our bodies always try to find the more efficient positions when doing things and bending is no different. Pretty much every style turns into some sort of pushing on the ends if possible at some point during the bend. Reverse (and maybe vertical) probably is the most difficult to do that on simply because you can't finish a bar off in that manner. 40 degrees is a sort of standard for reverse and vertical styles - the actual "wrist" action probably stops around there and then shifts to the overall upper body crush down portion of the bend. And the finish is never wrists, it's always more overall body.

[Carl Donati Jr]

I do not think the rules should be altered. As already mentioned by others, I feel that the integrity of the list would be changed forever. Additionally, the rules as they are currently, are very strict. I understand the differences in hand and wrap placement on the bar, and the variance this would have on performance, but requiring the cordura wraps, no rubber bands, and the bend to be done in under a minute already qualifies the number of people making this bend as minimal.

[Randall Strossen]

Not sure that I've mentioned along the way that I appreciate everyone chiming in on this - I am reading every post and want to thank everyone for sharing his opinions on this.

I think if we keep going like this we can reach a pretty good comfort level all the way around.

[David Wigren]

David -

What kind of things went wrong in terms of trying to enforce this, please?



I had a hard time explaining it without showing it. So I made a video.

Now what you're gonna see is two bends. Both are DO with wraps touching and knuckles touching (I'm assuming it wasn't the fistknuckles that were supose to be touching, because if that's so, I'll have to agree with Aaron and just call it biomechanically impossible). Now both are bent with the same regard to the rules we are discussing now.
All though there is one small difference in detail which makes a HUGE difference. One that won't be spotted during a cert. And that is palm placement. I would say that I am somewhere between 2 and 2.5 times stronger with the end of the bar in the middle of the bottom of my palm(where the crease goes) then I am with the bar resting on the heel side of my palm. I bet I could actually bend two 60D nails taped together with the first style, while I can't even bend one with the more stricter style.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=51HSrvcOz04

Now the first bend is essentially a DO/crucification style. While the other is the one we're talking about now.
It's impossible to set up rules that would enforce this.

[Randall Strossen]

Pretty interesting - thanks much for making that video. I watched it three or four times and am probably on the verge of getting fired for spending so much time on YouTube and this forum today.

Besides also making me want to go bend a nail, David's video reminded me of the idea of requiring that the hands be at about waist level on the bend. This really would wreak havoc with modern bending styles, though, so I am hoping we are not going to hear overwhelming support for that idea, but wanted to put that out on the table since we are going through this step by step.

[Daniel Reinard]

I'll first start by saying I am against the proposed rule changes.

Simply put, listed are my thoughts:

- IM pads don't offer the cheater bar effect you get with leather and doubles. I bend almost exclusively (99%) with IM pads and when I do use doubles whoa is there a difference.

- I use rubber bands in training so I can pull the pads off and slide them back on the same bar or other bars. I've done most of my PRs WITHOUT rubber bands. They offer no rigidity to the wraps and no help other than conveinience in a training session.

- As posted here I just bent my first Red in IM pads. I've worked very hard since last year to do this. I rip my skin open almost every day I bend, I've been sidelined by a shoulder injury, and I ache like an old man for the rest of the day after a session. So define easier... isn't it just a perspective?

- Double overhand can be some people's weak style. If that's the case do they get a free pass? It may be physical or technique. Again, perspective.

- Recently I picked up a York 50# blob with zero blob/block training. Same week a clean and press. A week later a hand to hand transfer. Did I discredit the feat because my hands possibly have a blob friendly grip? When more start lifting it will someone say it's time to make it harder because too many are starting to do it?

- Isn't folding a nail mostly in the pecs? Last time I checked bench press was my weakest excercise. I haven't and probably still can't even get close to my BW of 170lbs.

- On that same above note, my reach is almost a +4 and I'm 6'2". Are long armed people at a mechanical advantage over 'normal' people? One might have weaker wrists but better leverage to accomplish the same bend no matter the rules.

I agree with David's thoughts on this. I'd pull my name as well. And now that I'm maybe just a phone call away from doing a cert I may just say the heck with it. I thought the Red Nail was THE Bend to do so that was my training focus. I even set down my grippers to bend and originally the #3 cert was my goal. It really irks me that it would have been a waste to have thought so.

I know you all are aware of how negative it appears when rules are changed and even more so, the prestigiousness of a feat. And I understand you may be willing to sacrifice some of that to 'keep it real'. Keep in mind, although bending is not a recognized sport, it is still treated as such. The players will evolve physically, mentally and they will hone techniques that provide maximum advantage. Are you prepared to follow this evolution? Maybe we should cut to the chase and make the rules per the same way Brooksfield did it.

[Chris Rice]

So how far does one go? There are soooo many variables to muddy the waters - we just added in height of the hands on the body. An idea I liked way back when someone brought it up a few years ago is to make the bars longer - as in 10 or 12" inches and not allow you to have your hands on the ends of the bar at all - with the wraps and your hands having to show the ends at all times. This eliminates getting your arms off the ends and "ahead" of the bar like I think we are talking about as being the problem. In my playing around back then - it was almost all wrist and grip until the crush down - which was of course easier. All the best benders have the flexibility to do this with the high under the chin double overhand position - not everyone can achieve that with certain lengths of bars. If I had a vote - I'd leave it alone.

But I don't like the part of the Gripper cert that says I can't use my own COC #3 to cert on because someone "doctored" theirs in the past or borrowed one. I guess you just can't make everyone happy :).

[Mike Rinderle]

I certed last year with no chalk on the wraps (washed them out the day before) and no rubber bands in the double overhand style. I had the IMPs 2" in from the ends. So that left about 3" in between. I don't get a ton of leverage from IMPs just because they are so flexible compared to big thick doubles.

Obviously I can bend much bigger steel with 1.5" double suede wraps way out on the ends of the bar. In fact, I've bent Reds cut down to 4.5" in this manner.

But I think the IMPs (loose because of no bands) and the one minute time limit make this a pretty tough cert as is. If it wasn't, there would have been a lot more people that have done it in the last 16 years.

I really don't think we should change it. But if we do, I would certainly want my name taken off the list until I recertified according to whatever the new rules are. Otherwise I wouldn't really feel right about being on the list if everyone else had to meet a higher standard.

Anyway, I hope it stays the same, as this is the most well known bending certification out there and the one everyone strives for. I do understand that rules need to evolve, but if this cert really was too easy, I think more than just a few people would be doing it because it is so highly revered.

Thanks for taking the time to get feedback from everyone on this Randall.

[Perry Glover]

Very good video there David. It exposes the flaw in the "wraps touching/hands touching" suggestions.

I'm not a great bender myself, but yesterday I was able to finally get a red nail bent in about 2 minutes. I did it in suede wraps considerably thicker than IM wraps and in the double overhand style. It took me 3 years to get to this point. While I would like to someday reach the point of certifying on the red nail, I know it's still a long way off. Using IM wraps, no bands, and finishing in under 1 minute is still one hell of an accomplishment...it doesn't happen overnight, no matter who you are. Keep the rules as is, let the Red cert list maintain some integrity.

I'm not in favor of changing the rules for the Red certification. I don't see the list being overrun by dozens of people. If you want to make things more challenging, I second Casey's suggestion of creating a new bar using 3/8" diameter steel. I see the Red similar to the #3 gripper - hard but can be achieved by most who put in the work to get there. A 3/8" bar would be a very short list (nod to the #4 gripper) as I know of only one man who could currently perform the feat in IM wraps.

[Daniel Reinard]

. If you want to make things more challenging, I second Casey's suggestion of creating a new bar using 3/8" diameter steel. I see the Red similar to the #3 gripper - hard but can be achieved by most who put in the work to get there. A 3/8" bar would be a very short list (nod to the #4 gripper) as I know of only one man who could currently perform the feat in IM wraps.

Fantastic point. I'd be in HUGE favor that.

And also I agree about the popularity. Bending is becoming much more popular but I only saw 6 people cert last year and 7 the year before and even more the year before that. With popularity on the rise, Red certs is on the decline. :;dk)

[Mike Rinderle]

I would be in favor of the 3/8 bar as a Super Red as well.

[David Wigren]

The 7x3/8 Ironmind Black nail, I like it!:;tu)

[Jedd Johnson]

David W, thanks for putting together that video for the discussion. Very well done.

Jedd

[Andy Thomas]

I would respectfully request that no rule change occur. There are 65 names on the list since 1995. I don't see the Red Nail Roster being flooded with underserving names. The early years are occupied by those that shaped the bending world, the mid years through 2009 contain some of the world's ELITE benders, and most of the guys on the 2010 list are dedicated benders that have put in serious work to achieve the Red cert. The style used IMO is muted by the wraps. IMPs IMO are the great equalizer.....some may disagree, but I don't see a whole lot of big bends going down in IMPs.

The people requesting no change are serious benders....we do it a lot and we take it very seriously. I would be very interested to know what type of bender requested the change...most serious benders are not worried about what the guy next door is doing, they are to busy bending and they are glad someone else is too so they can share stories.

I think IMPs are the great equalizer....I mean no disrespect by this post.

Andy

[Andy Thomas]

This is the email I sent Mr. Strossen earlier today before my membership was approved:

On Feb 23, 2011, at 3:10 PM, Andy Thomas wrote:

> Dear Mr. Strossen, my name is Andy Thomas and I was the last person
> to be added to the 2010 Red Nail Roster. I apologize for cluttering
> you inbox with an unsolicited email- I have registered to be a
> member of your forum, but I felt compelled to send an email to voice
> my opinion, while my membership is being approved. I know that my
> name does not carry the weight of some of the more famous members of
> the Red Nail Roster, but I am a full time student of steel bending.
> I take bending very seriously, I hold it in high regard, and I
> always try and show it the respect it deserves. I trained for
> almost a full year to bend the Red Nail. I feel that the Red Nail
> Roster is THE ultimate certification list in the bending world
> today, for several reasons:
>
> 1. The wraps. IronMind Pads are the ultimate equalizer. There are
> other certification lists in the bending world that allow the use of
> leather, suede, and allow these to be double wrapped to a max
> diameter of 1.5". In my opinion, it's the big wraps that allow one
> to "fold" a bar. The IronMind Pad does not allow the true "pushing/
> folding" technique that is being debated.....it seems that several
> other members of the Red Nail Roster echo that statement. I have
> bent almost exclusively in IronMind Pads as they are considered
> "minimal wraps" and thus a "true test" of one's bending ability. I
> am a moderator on a small bending message board and feel the need to
> "set the standard"....I have become known- on our small board- for
> mostly just bending in IMPs. I believe that bending in IMPs in ANY
> style is a true test as the wraps offer so little padding and
> leverage, but offer the ULTIMATE in safety- never had an IronMind
> wrap tear or puncture through all layers. I encourage every bender
> I speak with to use IMPs...they are the best, AND will separate the
> men from the boys pretty quickly.
>
> 2. The time limit. To start and finish a bend in 1min demonstrates
> that you have overcome the bar in question without a
> doubt....another popular steel certification list allows 5min.
>
> 3. No rubber bands. Having the bar in wraps only, no bands requires
> the bender to grip much harder than he would have to with bands on.
>
> The Red roster is much smaller than the #3 COC list, it's actually
> the smallest large scale 5/16 x 7" CRS list in the world. It's
> elite. The people that are on you Roster either put in a lot of
> hard work, or are just freaks of nature. I beg you not to change
> the rules. If you decide change is in order would you please
> consider:
>
> 1. Judge selection- the first way to tighten things up would be to
> select people that are serious benders to use as judges. Some of
> the judges that have been used have never bent steel and may not be
> familiar with what is truly unbraced bending. It is not their fault
> AND they are volunteers, but using true benders as judges could be
> one way to standardize things a bit.
>
> 2. Standardization of the Red Nail- I know it would be way too
> costly to calibrate all Reds sold, but the ones used for the Red
> Nail roster, if standardized would ensure that everyone had bent the
> same "strength" steel.
>
>
> I am one of those that are being criticized as "taking the easy way
> out" by placing my wraps out near the ends of the bar, or folding- I
> wrapped at 1.75" from the end. I assure you that I left plenty of
> blood, sweat, and tears on my garage floor training to bend the Red,
> I never used any wraps other than IronMind Pads during that journey,
> I am very proud of my achievement. That being said, I would train
> to re-cert with any new rules that were put forth, I take bending
> very seriously, it is my "outlet".
>
> I hope this came across with the same respect that I typed it with.
> I love your products, especially your IronMind Pads. Thank you for
> your time- Andy Thomas

[Bob Lipinski]

Dr. Strossen, since you are asking for feedback-

I bent a red with IM pads and a washrag shortly after the rule change, and have done more with leather pads after. I don't think I am close to hitting the red with IM pads alone.

I think the standards are relatively high with the IM pad requirement. Just wanted to put my opinion in, though I think other guys are more qualified than me.

[David Wigren]

Pretty interesting - thanks much for making that video. I watched it three or four times and am probably on the verge of getting fired for spending so much time on YouTube and this forum today.

Besides also making me want to go bend a nail, David's video reminded me of the idea of requiring that the hands be at about waist level on the bend. This really would wreak havoc with modern bending styles, though, so I am hoping we are not going to hear overwhelming support for that idea, but wanted to put that out on the table since we are going through this step by step.
Hahaha. No youtube link this time Randall. I know first hand that Youtube at work is not appreciated. I've been there before haha.

But on a serious note regarding the waist idea.
I ask the experienced benders here. At closer inspection, doesn't this look like a close grip reverse bend braced against the waist?
Brookfield style (http://oi54.tinypic.com/14cy7it.jpg)
Personally I can see how it would be easy to brace that hand against the hip and turn it into a brace bend.

[Mike Rinderle]

When I have seen illustrations in the past of John's style, I always assumed he was starting the bend with a braced kink. Even if he isn't, it would be impossible to judge with the hands up against the hip like that. Even if he is bracing his hand against the hip, that is a tough way to kink a nail so no disrespect intended.

[Casey Emery]

Randall, I have been searching videos for examples of a strict traditional bend when I ran across this video, it was shot in my garage a few years ago. In this example the nail ( a IM red ) was wrapped with a single Ironmind wrap. The bender is Paul Knight. Watching close at the start of the bend, you will notice that he tucks the end of the wraps around the bar, to a point where there is actually no wrap to hold onto past the ends of the bar. But on the kink his hands are still out on the end of the bar. He is able to do this because: 1) His hands are tough enough 2) His grip is strong enough.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lunx6y0eapo

Anybody who has tried this whould know that that was a awesome display of toughness, but some who jump to conclusions would view it as his hands were out on the end of the bar, so he was push \ folding. Just an interesting example that I though would be realivant to this discussion. Food for thought.

[Randall Strossen]

Lots of good points coming out and I think a pretty clear consensus on has emerged, thanks to everyone weighing in.

I was going to suggest that if they are willing to do this, maybe Aaron, Jedd, Andy, Casey and David could take the lead in terms of making sure that we're covering all the bases here and giving everyone a chance to speak up.

Once we've done that, I think this same group of guys could tell us where they think we've ended up, and then I'll cast my vote, too.

Want to thank everyone again for taking the time to think about this and to post - I am enjoying reading the posts and have a learned a bunch along the way, too.

[Andy Thomas]

I would be very interested in participating in this process. Thank You for the opportunity.

I do have a question that I think would help us all if it could be answered: Has the individual that asked for the rules to be "looked into" ever bent a Red Nail, in IMPs, under official conditions?

I do not ask this to be trite, I feel it is important information. Several have already mentioned that bending the Red in IronMind pads requires much different hand/finger involvement vs bending one in fat pads. While I have never bent a Red in anything other than IMPs, I have used "doubles" to bend other bars so I know how differently the two wraps behave. My fingers take quite the beating in IMPs, they feel nothing when I use doubles.

I am wondering if the individual that requested the rule change knows this difference first hand.

[Randall Strossen]

Andy -

I'd like to clear up that all of this is not revolving around one specific request - it's a question that has been lingering at least on the fringes for years and came up once again in a recent series of emails with what I would call a short steel bending enthusiast. This fellow is not a certified Red Nail bender, although I think he uses IM pads exclusively these days, with chalk, but no rubber bands.

Part of why I posted the question here is because I see what experienced, accomplished benders we have on this forum and wanted to turn to this group of experts to see how they felt about it. I expected some really solid feedback, but frankly, you guys have exceeded my expectations and there's no question in my mind that all of us are taking a good hard look at the question.

Sorry for the delay in replying!

[Kevin McFadden]

Randall,

With all of the talk the past two days about the certifications process and lists, I have three ideas that I think would help reduce problems:

1. Place a video on the certification pages that shows the proper way to conduct a certification. This would not be an actual certification video, but a tutorial on how the it should be done. The person demonstrating the feat should be talking the audience through the entire process. There should also be a mock judge that explains what should be looked for during the process.

2. Include a FAQs on the certification pages (in addition to the rules that are already in place). Questions like: "Do I have to insert the credit card myself or can someone else do it?". Basically include any and all questions that can make the certification process as dummy proof as possible.

3. Include information on the bottom of each certification list that state how and when the certification process changed. This information can be written in small print (so no one on the list feels slighted). I still believe that rule changes change the feat itself and that there should be different lists, but with the information listed at the bottom, the list could remain the same with no issues.

Thanks for considering our viewpoints.

[Jedd Johnson]

Randall,

With all of the talk the past two days about the certifications process and lists, I have three ideas that I think would help reduce problems:

1. Place a video on the certification pages that shows the proper way to conduct a certification. This would not be an actual certification video, but a tutorial on how the it should be done. The person demonstrating the feat should be talking the audience through the entire process. There should also be a mock judge that explains what should be looked for during the process.

2. Include a FAQs on the certification pages (in addition to the rules that are already in place). Questions like: "Do I have to insert the credit card myself or can someone else do it?". Basically include any and all questions that can make the certification process as dummy proof as possible.

3. Include information on the bottom of each certification list that state how and when the certification process changed. This information can be written in small print (so no one on the list feels slighted). I still believe that rule changes change the feat itself and that there should be different lists, but with the information listed at the bottom, the list could remain the same with no issues.

Thanks for considering our viewpoints.

Not bad ideas, especially the video.

[Casey Emery]

I really like Kevins idea about a instructional video.
Seems the question is " How does Ironmind eliminate the crushing style start of the bend, or the "push/fold style of the first phase of the bend. some suggestions have been as followed :
1) Wraps must touch in the center of the bar
2) Hands and or fingers must touch during the beggining phase of the bend.
3) Bend must be performed at about waist level
4) Must use a reverse bend to 40 degrees in 30 seconds ( I think Chris suggested this )
5) probably more I am missing.
I have searched through alot of Red Nail cert videos and could not find one example of a bender performing this feat with wraps touch/fingers touching strict wrist tourque only method mentioned in previous posts. And there are ALOT of red nail cert vids out there. Not saying that everybody on the list used this push/fold style, but from the videos out there, most did.
My stance is that the Ironmind wraps remove the advantage and the leverage that thicker, more rigid wraps give a bender. Some benders ( a example video in post # 51 ) have even thickened their skin to the point of leather and can use the hands as levers. Should they be restricted from this because they "folded the bar". . . I don't think so. My opinion is just that, my opinion, and really amounts to a hill of beans because I am not yet on the list, but I am glad you take the time to hear it out. I hope the rules on this honerary list will remain the same, so that the ones who cert in 100 yrs from now will know they did it just like those who cert today.

[Jedd Johnson]

Lots of good points coming out and I think a pretty clear consensus on has emerged, thanks to everyone weighing in.

I was going to suggest that if they are willing to do this, maybe Aaron, Jedd, Andy, Casey and David could take the lead in terms of making sure that we're covering all the bases here and giving everyone a chance to speak up.

Once we've done that, I think this same group of guys could tell us where they think we've ended up, and then I'll cast my vote, too.

Want to thank everyone again for taking the time to think about this and to post - I am enjoying reading the posts and have a learned a bunch along the way, too.

Randall, I have contacted these guys to get to work on this.

I think we will be able to come up with something that will be very good for the cert. going forward.

Jedd

[Steve Weiner]

Sports evolve over the years. Baseball seasonal home run records were broken in modern times when bats are lighter, the fences are closer, more games are played in a season and the balls are wound tighter than in years passed.

If the Red Nail rules are changed, I think separate lists are not necessary, Just as an asterisk next to Roger Maris' (for those not familiar, he broke Babe Ruth's single season home run record but he did it after Major League Baseball added 8 more games to regular season play) name was silly, and eventually removed, those who have already certified on the Red Nail should just be left on the list as is. I am not just saying this because my name is on the list. Heck, I certified right after the one-minute rule was put into place, and it was because of my first attempt at Red Nail certification (it took me about 10 minutes to bend the darned thing) that it was put into place. Dr. Strossen called me to discuss that he did not feel he could certify a feat of strength that took 10 minutes because he felt that it to keep it in the spirit of a true feat of strength it should take no longer than one minute. I accepted it and then asked him to please bring a Red Nail to the 2004 AOBS Dinner, so I could certify with him as my witness.

The bottom line is that games evolve over the years as the players change, so the new players may have to deal with harsher rules, but they will eventually adapt and the rules may change again.

[Andy Thomas]

All good points Casey. I think one of your best points may have been missed by some and that was the post of Paul Knight's 1 IMP Red bend. He bent it DO style, and his form looked just like it does when he bends with 2 wraps on the bar. That's one of my favorite Red Nail vids by the way.

If you look at the Red Cert vids you can find, they all look rather similar. High DO style. It started in 2003 with the Holles and has been used every year since. I think that part of the problem is that this position can be VERY difficult to get into for some....I personally spent about 6 months trying to learn how to bend high DO style before my shoulders had adapted enough to allow me to get into this position. Some of this seems to arise from people that don't/can't bend in this style. I think those that have bent high DO in IMPs understand that it is difficult and it does require hand and finger strength to complete the bend.

[Jedd Johnson]

Steve, are you suggesting any rule changes? Thanks.

[Ben Edwards]

I vote for no rule change. I think doing the cert with the Ironmind pads already makes it an elite cert.

I'm not on the Red Nail cert list but I definitely have experience bending with the Ironmind pads and have done some big bends with them - including a few 4.5" Reds under 5 minutes. The following video is a 5" Bastard (for those that don't know, a 5" Red equivalent sold through John Beatty's company Fat Bastard Barbell Company), a 6" Bastard, and a 7" Bastard. Done with only enough rest between the bars to measure the bend on video and then start on the other bar. The 5" bar went pretty quickly - 21 seconds. I did have rubber bands on the pads but that was really more out of habit since that's how I did all my bends.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ojx7H1LQzFM

The form I used in this 3-year-old video is the high DO style. But I also bent 5.5" Reds on many occasions DU - even what I would consider strict DU with the pinkys touching on the initial kink.

When I was at my strongest I much preferred bending with double pads just for the simple fact that I could bend harder steel and it was painless. I could push into the ends of the bar as hard as I wanted without any pain in my hands and fingers. There are more than a few of us that built high levels of bending-specific strength with double pads (leather usually, but sometimes leather and Ironmind pads) and then were able to transfer it with a high degree of success to only using the Ironmind pads.

So what at first looks like "cheating" (double pads) is really only another method of training to be a better and stronger bender with ANY pads.

I love bending. I can't bend high DO or DU anymore due to some injuries that I've accumulated due to my own stubbornness and bad training habits when I was at my peak. Like "warming up" with 5.5" Reds for a while and then bending 4.5" Reds (and eventually a few 4" Reds in double pads). I even love watching guys struggle and eventually succeed with a hard bend. In any style. With any pads. I'll cheer on a guy who's bending a Green Nail in double pads as heartily as a friend who's bending a 5" Red in Ironmind pads.

My point is that all bending is entertaining and enjoyable. I respect the guys who can do the super strict wrist-dominant bending (like Dave L) - all the way to the guys like me who specialized in double pads.

I'm glad this thread hasn't devolved to the point where we're challenging each other and calling each other out to match such-and-such bend. Because guys that specalize in one style don't often excel in all styles of bending. And again, it's all fun. Bending is never going to be an Olympic sport but a lot of us enjoy it as if it was already. These days I can only bend with the reverse style and I especially enjoy watching other guys that are super strong with that style - because I struggle with that style and always have.

Will I eventually cert on the Red Nail? I think so. But it will be reverse style if I do. It's kind of funny that I once considered a Red Nail way too easy to even warmup with. And now I'd be thrilled to be able to reverse bend one as a max bend.:) Things change. Styles change. Training changes.

But I hope we can all stay the same in our enjoyment of bending in all its forms!

[Paul Knight]

I vote NO to the rule change

... unless you make a seperate list like others have already mention

I understand that sports evolve and the bar continues to rise, but the fact of it is that it would be a completely different certification ... which constitutes a completely new list.

It does bother me that everyone that looks at the CoC #4 list thinks that the people on the list have closed the #4 brand new out of the package with a CCS .... I would be on the #4 list right now if the rule didn't change.

I think Perry "nailed" it on the head (pun intended:;hy)) ... the Red is like a #3 .. simply make a tougher nail to bend if the concern is that too many people are certifying (cheapening the cert). Make a nail that that would be equivalent to what a #4 is to a #3 .. besides, it's another way to make something new to sell and make some $ off of ... I would buy them;)

[Mike Rinderle]

I vote NO to the rule change

... unless you make a seperate list like others have already mention

I understand that sports evolve and the bar continues to rise, but the fact of it is that it would be a completely different certification ... which constitutes a completely new list.

It does bother me that everyone that looks at the CoC #4 list thinks that the people on the list have closed the #4 brand new out of the package with a CCS .... I would be on the #4 list right now if the rule didn't change.

I think Perry "nailed" it on the head (pun intended:;hy)) ... the Red is like a #3 .. simply make a tougher nail to bend if the concern is that too many people are certifying (cheapening the cert). Make a nail that that would be equivalent to what a #4 is to a #3 .. besides, it's another way to make something new to sell and make some $ off of ... I would buy them;)

+1 ^

I also agree with Steve that people shouldn't have their names removed from the list if the cert is made harder with a rule change. That should definitely be left up to the individual. If the rules were changed to make the cert significantly harder, I would personally want to have my name removed until I could recert. It's a personal honor thing with me. I would feel horrible, if 10 years from now, someone looked at the list and assumed I had certified with the harder rules when I had not. Heck, I once discovered my oly bar was about 10 lbs light and proceeded to go on every strength site I had ever posted on to make a full disclosure. Could I have kept that to myself? Yup. Did my mediocre lifts change much by being 10 lbs lighter in anyone else's eyes? Probably not. Nobody probably noticed in the first place because they were far from world class lifts. But again, it was a matter of honor that I never claim to be something I'm not, and I wouldn't want to leave it up to interpretation in this case. I would want to recert under the hardest rules if I could, or not be on the list. But that's a personal decision, and each person needs to make that choice for themselves with no stigma attached one way or the other.

Luckily it sounds like the consensus is to keep things the way they are, or close to it. I hope that's the way it goes, but if not, you can bet I'll be busting my butt to get back on the list under the new rules.

[Nick Rosendaul]

TO me no matter how you bend it if you can bend a red in Iron Mind Pads you are In a very small group. I for one can't yet. In leather yes.

[Dave Lemanczyk]

@ Steve Weiner - I thought your input was very well placed and it takes a bright individual to figure out how to apply that information.

[Randall Strossen]

It does bother me that everyone that looks at the CoC #4 list thinks that the people on the list have closed the #4 brand new out of the package with a CCS .... I would be on the #4 list right now if the rule didn't change.

I know this is a little off the specific subject, but I wanted to say that Paul's right about this, although it's also true that not everyone deep set the No. 4 or used a suspect gripper - for whatever it's worth, I would bet that two of the guys on that list would have been able to certify under today's rules, although that's just a guess on my part (and that also indicates that the others might not, plus as Paul points out, more guys would be on the list now if those rules had not changed).

On the Captains of Crush certification, I had very solid reasons for wanting to maintain the longstanding tradition on this gripper and there was a direct way to plugs the two leaks that had popped up. From what so many of you have posted, I'd guess you feel the situation with the Red Nail is very different because bending techniques are evolving and the IronMind pads already eliminate the most egregious techniques.

[Andy Thomas]

Exactly Randall, the IronMind Pads are the great equalizer IMO.

[Jedd Johnson]

@ Steve Weiner - I thought your input was very well placed and it takes a bright individual to figure out how to apply that information.

The only thing I wasn't sure about was Steve's position on changes that did or did not need to be made. I asked if he wanted to suggest changes, but my post may have gotten missed due to all the activity yesterday.

Steve, are you suggesting rule changes be made? You pointed out how sports change so I inferred you had suggestions?

Thanks maroon-panted one.

Jedd

[Steve Weiner]

The only thing I wasn't sure about was Steve's position on changes that did or did not need to be made. I asked if he wanted to suggest changes, but my post may have gotten missed due to all the activity yesterday.

Steve, are you suggesting rule changes be made? You pointed out how sports change so I inferred you had suggestions?

Thanks maroon-panted one.

Jedd


Jedd,

I like to bend stuff with my hands close together so I gain strength and not just complete a feat just for the sake of completing a feat. I have gained long lasting wrist strength this way. I do not get into discussions about bending styles, wraps, and all that other stuff on Internet Boards. If you want to talk more about this next time you see me then fine. I feel if more people bent steel like Dave Lemanczyk does in his Grade 5 bolt bend video, then alot of people would get stronger wrists and grips as a result. No rule changes necessary.

[Paul Knight]

Hey Casey - The reason you don't gain any leverage with ironmind pads is because you don't actually grip the pads and hold them in place during a bend. This is why you wrap them up and then put rubber bands on to keep them secure. By doing that you miss out on a HUGE part of what it takes to bend steel. The rubber band wrap/push and fold techniques that you and many other guys use may get steel bent but it's not the same as good old fashioned wrist torque. Whether I am on the red nail roster or not, I don't think too may guys can bend Grade 5 Bolts with the pads touching and hands touching at the start of a bend. Think about it.

Can you bend a Grade 5 Bolt like this?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hapYIP13MwI

If you can, kick a**, I'd like to see the video. Good luck with your wrist training. Save the rubber bands for little children and green plastic army men.

Dave,

not trying to ruffle any feathers, but it looked like to me that after your initial reverse kink you jumped to the pushing on the ends technique that you are speaking against ... in addition, you are bending a 1/4" x 6" G5 which when you bend a 6" bar, it's very easy to bend with the leather touching and your fingers touching ... start experimenting with some 7" stock and you will notice a difference .. also, if you switch to IM wraps and perform the same bend (instead of the leather you were using) you will notice that it's quite a bit harder and more painful. Try it out and see if you can tell a difference (if you haven't already).

Again, not trying to rub you the wrong way ... just an observation

[Jedd Johnson]

Jedd,

I like to bend stuff with my hands close together so I gain strength and not just complete a feat just for the sake of completing a feat. I have gained long lasting wrist strength this way. I do not get into discussions about bending styles, wraps, and all that other stuff on Internet Boards. If you want to talk more about this next time you see me then fine. I feel if more people bent steel like Dave Lemanczyk does in his Grade 5 bolt bend video, then alot of people would get stronger wrists and grips as a result. No rule changes necessary.

That's fine, Steve. We can do that.

[Nick Rosendaul]

Jedd,

I like to bend stuff with my hands close together so I gain strength and not just complete a feat just for the sake of completing a feat. I have gained long lasting wrist strength this way. I do not get into discussions about bending styles, wraps, and all that other stuff on Internet Boards. If you want to talk more about this next time you see me then fine. I feel if more people bent steel like Dave Lemanczyk does in his Grade 5 bolt bend video, then alot of people would get stronger wrists and grips as a result. No rule changes necessary.

I did all my bending like this for the first year or 2 I started unbraced bending. To build up a good strength base befor moving on to the other styles. This is what Pat recomended when I ask him about it so that's what I did. It worked well for me. I just bend because I love to bend. I don't get into all the other junk. Just go out into my gym and put work in. Steve you and Pat are the ones that inspired me to start bending and I thank you for that! Steel bending is part of me now.

[Steve Weiner]

That's fine, Steve. We can do that.

Jedd,

My pants are burgundy, not maroon. Burgundy power is where it is at. After I talk to you about the Red Nail rules and bending in general, I may just have to clothesline you for old times' sake. :;hy)

[Nick Rosendaul]

Jedd,

My pants are burgundy, not maroon. Burgundy power is where it is at. After I talk to you about the Red Nail rules and bending in general, I may just have to clothesline you for old times' sake. :;hy)

:)It's good to know that Burgundy power is still in full effect and powerd by Graders Raspberry chocolate chunck would hope.:;hy)

[Chris Rice]

Jedd,

My pants are burgundy, not maroon. Burgundy power is where it is at. After I talk to you about the Red Nail rules and bending in general, I may just have to clothesline you for old times' sake. :;hy)

P.E.P. Performance enhancing pants hummmm :;hy)

[Dan Cenidoza]

I am not opposed to making the *cert* harder but I think the current *rules* are pretty legit. In other words, I'd like to see a 3/8" bar instead of a rule change.

I think you're getting into splitting hairs with a "hand placement" rule - it's just too much. I never bought too much into the "folding" argument - nobody is simply pushing into the ends without any wrist torque. Coming way out on the bar and pulling on the wraps however, does extend your leverage, and there is a way to fold the IM wraps to extend that leverage.

If you are going to do any rule change, I would suggest it be that you can only double the wraps over (i.e. fold them in half) or in a way so that they are shorter than 4 inches. Wrapping a 7" bar with anything longer than 4" (on each side) gives you too much material to pull on (thus taking your hands further off of the bar). With that said, wrap placement might not be a bad idea, but I don't think a rule on hand placement is necessary with the proper wrapping.

[Jedd Johnson]

I guess I need to wrap up a bar, because I can't seem to understand how you can use IMP's to gain leverage on a Red Nail unless someone has figured out how to wrap them a different way, especially if no rubber bands are used. As soon as I pull the rubber bands off, they want to completely open up and pop off. Then when I bend they fold over the end, giving way pretty easily, and they are folded in thirds. Mine aren't even beaten up real badly. I can't see how they offer all this extra leverage?

[Andy Thomas]

I would love to see a 3/8" bar..that would be sweet! The next step so to speak. IMPs are not stiff like some double wraps. Doubles on the end of a bar can be used to gain leverage for sure. My best doubles bend is 120lbs+ over my best IMP bend...it's different. Wraps do matter. Again, I feel that the IMPs level the playing field.

Actually all wraps help, from doubles all the way down to paper towels.....any wrap makes the feat easier to some degree. I feel IMPs offer the ultimate combination of difficulty and safety.

[Paul Knight]

I am not opposed to making the *cert* harder but I think the current *rules* are pretty legit. In other words, I'd like to see a 3/8" bar instead of a rule change.

I think you're getting into splitting hairs with a "hand placement" rule - it's just too much. I never bought too much into the "folding" argument - nobody is simply pushing into the ends without any wrist torque. Coming way out on the bar and pulling on the wraps however, does extend your leverage, and there is a way to fold the IM wraps to extend that leverage.

If you are going to do any rule change, I would suggest it be that you can only double the wraps over (i.e. fold them in half) or in a way so that they are shorter than 4 inches. Wrapping a 7" bar with anything longer than 4" (on each side) gives you too much material to pull on (thus taking your hands further off of the bar). With that said, wrap placement might not be a bad idea, but I don't think a rule on hand placement is necessary with the proper wrapping.

Careful just folding the IM wraps over the bar and then trying to "DO" it cause I did that once and the Red nail slipped out of the wraps and cut the **** out of my thumb pad and thumb ... I have a vivid/permanent scar from it. You're probably cool folding the wraps over the bar if you are hitting it "DU" or "reverse" though

[Daniel Reinard]

I'm with Jedd on how the IM wraps cannot be used to be pulled on like thick double leathers can. They just fold over where they hang off the bar. And if you try to tug on the ends, especially without rubber bands, they will come off the bar!

As a matter of personal preference, I like the IM pads just a hair shy of 2" onto the ends of the bar and the deciding factor in pad placement is dependant on my index finger placement. I like the index fingers hanging on the bar, not the pad.

[Dan Cenidoza]

Careful just folding the IM wraps over the bar and then trying to "DO" it cause I did that once and the Red nail slipped out of the wraps and cut the **** out of my thumb pad and thumb ... I have a vivid/permanent scar from it. You're probably cool folding the wraps over the bar if you are hitting it "DU" or "reverse" though

What I mean is folding the wraps in half and then rolling/wrapping like you normally would. Someone showed me a "trick" where you fold the wraps in a way that the nail is triple padded but a single ply length extends out past the nail (further than it would if you simply folded the wrap in half, and then wrapped). Hope that makes sense... kinda hard to explain in words.

[Carl Donati Jr]

I would love to see a 3/8" bar..that would be sweet! The next step so to speak.

I would love to see this too! Two separate lists-the Red and the 3/8" bar. I have never attempted to bend 3/8" stock and don't know where I stand with it, but do have an idea of what I'd be doing 3+ times/week over the next year or so if this was made.

[Steve Gardener]

I posted elsewhere some time back on the whole bending subject. Back in 2004 at the GGC that year I saw a multi-layered bundle of fabric, kevlar, suede and even chalk (sprinkled as though it was some sort of pasta recipe ingredient) being folded and rolled. I do not know the guys name but I know I beat him on a G5 or a G8 using my torn in half metrx bar towel.

I'm no fan of bending some of the more crazy stuff even though my best was a kink in a Red nail as it's just too **** uncomfortable. Yet I won the gold medal at the Euros in the same year on the bending portion.

As we saw when there was a required change in the certification rules for gripper closes we are seeing moves and techniques and clamoring for rule changes to allow such styles which take the intended rules too far away from their origins. I have no wish to see barehanded bends, with the hands lubed up, but equally some of the more crazy stuff we're now seeing suggests a stiffening is required.

[Daniel Reinard]

I'm no fan of bending some of the more crazy stuff even though my best was a kink in a Red nail as it's just too **** uncomfortable. Yet I won the gold medal at the Euros in the same year on the bending portion.

As we saw when there was a required change in the certification rules for gripper closes we are seeing moves and techniques and clamoring for rule changes to allow such styles which take the intended rules too far away from their origins. I have no wish to see barehanded bends, with the hands lubed up, but equally some of the more crazy stuff we're now seeing suggests a stiffening is required.

May I ask what crazy stuff has prompted a required stiffening of the rules?

And what would you suggest be changed?


I posted elsewhere some time back on the whole bending subject. Back in 2004 at the GGC that year I saw a multi-layered bundle of fabric, kevlar, suede and even chalk (sprinkled as though it was some sort of pasta recipe ingredient) being folded and rolled. I do not know the guys name but I know I beat him on a G5 or a G8 using my torn in half metrx bar towel.

I think that's why IMPs are required, and no chalk or bands. No custom homemade secret weapon wraps and you need to hold on tight if you don't want a slip.

I mean no disrespect, but also may I ask why you are interested in rule changes if, as above, you do not express any interest in bending and maybe haven't since 2004, 7 years ago?

[Jedd Johnson]

What I mean is folding the wraps in half and then rolling/wrapping like you normally would. Someone showed me a "trick" where you fold the wraps in a way that the nail is triple padded but a single ply length extends out past the nail (further than it would if you simply folded the wrap in half, and then wrapped). Hope that makes sense... kinda hard to explain in words.

Is there a video of this trick? I don't think I've ever seen it?

Still seems like the wraps would not be that tight on the bar, and the hang over the end would be too flimsy to get a good hold on.

Jedd

[Jedd Johnson]

I was curious so I wrapped up a red nail with my IMP's which are permanently folded into thirds.

The wraps triple-folded are between 4 and 4.5 inches thick, as my fold is crooked. In order to wrap it so that my big goofy fingers don't end up touching the bar and getting crushed during a double overhand bend, I need to cover roughly 2.75 inches of the end of the bar. That leaves 1.25 to 1.5 inches of overhang off the bar.

2.75 + 2.75 = 5.5 inches of wrap covered bar. 1.5 inches of bar in the center remains uncovered by wraps.

With an overhand of 1.25 to 1.5 inches, the wraps bend straight down when I compress into the nail with Double Overhand technique and it is virtually impossible for me to grip onto this length of wrap and pull down.

After wrapping I tried twisting, and the wrap easily spun around the bar. Whereas you can actually make the suede stretch when wrapping a bar tight, and it grabs tightly onto the bar (especially with heavily applied chalk dust), the IMP's do not seem to permit this stretching.

Just some findings...working on the wording of the rules now.

Jedd

[Daniel Reinard]

Is there a video of this trick? I don't think I've ever seen it?

Still seems like the wraps would not be that tight on the bar, and the hang over the end would be too flimsy to get a good hold on.

Jedd

Just goofing around with some paper at my desk...4"x6" paper...folding along the 4" width...

If I tri fold it like most do with IMPs it ends up obviously around 1.3" wide.

If I fold it in half, then take one flap and fold that in half back over it creates a 3 layer 1" wide and 1 layer 1" wide. So you get the tri fold but with more length at 2" instead 1.3" (with the paper I have).

Is this what you mean Dan?

Maybe someone with a bar and IMPs on hand can give it a go. I'm currently out of reach with mine.

Edit: I'm not sure how it's a 'trick'. I don't know what one will do with a single ply of IM pad at the end of a bar no matter the length. My palm is only 4" wide which is the same width of a tri-folded IMP, so any more width will go unused. Again, I'll have to try and find out.

[Steve Gardener]

May I ask what crazy stuff has prompted a required stiffening of the rules?

And what would you suggest be changed?



I think that's why IMPs are required, and no chalk or bands. No custom homemade secret weapon wraps and you need to hold on tight if you don't want a slip.

I mean no disrespect, but also may I ask why you are interested in rule changes if, as above, you do not express any interest in bending and maybe haven't since 2004, 7 years ago?

I believe I stated I'd like to see any bending within the rules as they intended. So no over padding.

[Daniel Reinard]

I believe I stated I'd like to see any bending within the rules as they intended. So no over padding.
An IM pad is an IM pad. So no rule change then. Apologies, I may have misunderstood the "stiffening is required" part.

[Kevin McFadden]

Here's a conversation I had with Steve McGranahan regarding changing the rules:

Me: Big Steve,
I need your opinion on something that's been discussed on the Ironmind forum the last couple of days: Randall Strossen asked if the current rules for certing on the Red Nail need to be changed. There was discussion about making the wraps touch (instead of being out on the end of the bar) and about making the hands touch. What are your thoughts on this? Do you think the rules should be changed? If so, how?

Steve: you should be able to fold them anyway u wish just as long as u use only ironmind pads. people forget hands are not all the same size. people just need to stop thinking too much and just bend and have fun. I know I'm having fun touching peoples lives with just one nail and the Good News.

[Jedd Johnson]

To all interested:

The Focus Group has worked all weekend to iron this stuff out. We are pretty much done right now, but we will be taking the night to sleep on it. I will send the completed list of considerations on Monday.

Thanks.

Jedd

[Randall Strossen]

To all interested:

The Focus Group has worked all weekend to iron this stuff out. We are pretty much done right now, but we will be taking the night to sleep on it. I will send the completed list of considerations on Monday.

Thanks.

Jedd

Thanks much guys - looking forward to reading your summary comments and recommendations.

[Randall Strossen]

Jedd -

I was out of the office most of yesterday, but am back now so I wanted to touch bases with you, Aaron, Andy, David and Casey to see where you might be in terms of this review and recommendation process.

Thanks much.

[Jedd Johnson]

Sorry I didn't get it to you yesterday. There was one detail we wanted to iron out but we are all finished now. I should be able to send it over very soon.

[Randall Strossen]

Jedd -

No problem and no rush - just wanted to make sure I hadn't missed it.

[Randall Strossen]

All -

I've just received and read the summary and recommendations developed by Jedd Johnson, David Wigren, Casey Emery, Aaron Corcorran and Andy Thomas.

These guys did a super job, and I asked Jedd if he could please post their report here - so that everyone can read it and offer any additional comments they'd like to make.

Nice work, guys - thanks much for all you put into this.

[Jedd Johnson]

Here is the Review for our Focus Group:

Due to questions around the validity of the current rules for the IronMind Red Nail certification, a focus group was put together consisting of Jedd Johnson, David Wigren, Casey Emery, Andy Thomas, Aaron Corcorran.

The primary focus areas of this group involved discussing the following items:

1. The location of the wraps and how far they hang off the end of the bar.

2. The legality of the "Folding" technique

3. Starting position of the hands


RE: Location of the Wraps and their overhang

Due to hand size differences, dictating where the wraps are placed could potentially lead to safety issues on the 7” bar. For instance, some benders are comfortable with their wraps 2 inches up the bar, others 1.5 inches. Much of this comfort level is related to the hand and finger size of the bender, a variable which can not be changed.

The IMP’s offer very little padding, but are outstanding at preventing puncture.
Regardless of the wrap overhang, there is still immense pressure on the fingers during a
Double Overhand/Fold bend.

Re: The legality of the Folding technique

Photo and video evidence shows that this technique has been used since 2003 and used by many benders over the years.

A common complaint about the Double Overhand / Folding technique is that it takes the grip strength component out of the feat and transfers it all to upper body strength. Of the Focus Group, many members said they felt that the fingers and hands were still taxed when using IMP’s especially in regards to the level of pain and skin damage caused.

Also, a strong upper body is not a guarantee that the bender will be able to Fold the Red Nail. Bending requires either natural shoulder flexibility / mobility in order to apply compression forces efficiently, long periods of technique work, and tough, strong lower arms. Missing any one of these pieces of the puzzle will result on diminished bending performance


RE: Starting position of the hands


Individual biomechanics and hand/finger sizes make dictating a starting position very difficult. Starting with hands touching in the center could potentially place the ends of the bar in a spot that would make bending the nail nearly impossible.

Other Findings:

There are 65 names on the list since 1995. There has been no rapid expansion of Red Nail Roster members. The most that have been added in one year according to the current version of the list is 12 in both 2004 and 2005. After this, there is an average of 7 people added each year. Also, a one-day survey of people on Facebook showed that all of the certified Red Nail benders who participated used the Double Overhand / Folding Technique. This technique was used all the way back to 2003.

Rule Enhancement Suggestions:

Per our conversations, the Focus Group suggests the following enhancements to the current rules and guidelines for the Red Nail Certification:

Wraps: Only a set of official IronMind Pads are allowed to bend the Red Nail. They should be kept in their original state. Folding of the pads is permitted, however, use of rubber bands to keep the wraps in place are not permitted during the bend of the nail.

Technique: The technique used in order to bend the Red Nail is up to the bender’s preference, but at no time during the bend may the bender’s arms, hands or the Red Nail touch the body below the waist. Hands may only touch the body from the waist up. Following are proper and accepted techniques for bending the Red Nail:

There are several recognized methods for legitimately bending an Ironmind Red Nail.

- Reverse style. The nail held with an over under hand grip. When a sufficient kink is made the nail can then be crushed down with the Double Overhand style.


- Double Underhand style. The nail is held with an underhand grip. It can be started from as high as the level of the chin and bent down as low as the benders waist.

- Double Overhand style. The nail is held with an overhand grip. The bend may be started from under the bender's chin, and bent from there. The bar may be started from a lower position as well.



Other variations of these are acceptable, as long as:

1. Only a pair of official Ironmind Hand Pads is allowed to be used to bend the nail.

2. The technique or style used to bend the nail is of your own preference. But no part of the benders arms/hands or the nail itself may touch the body below waist level. Hands may only touch the body from the waist and above.

3. The bend of an authentic Ironmind red nail must be completed within 1 minute. And it must be bent down to where the legs of the U shaped nail are no more than 2" apart.

4. No straps, wrapping or taping of any part of the hands or arms is allowed.



Time Limit: After wrapping, the bend of the authentic Red Nail must be completed within 1 minute from the start of the attempt to the finish. The Red Nail must be bent down to where there is no more than 2 inches between the insides of the ends of the legs.

Support Equipment: No straps, wrapping or taping of any parts of the hands or arms is permitted for the bend (i.e. wrist tape or wraps, finger taping, etc)


Conclusion: It is the unanimous opinion of our group that we feel changing the rules regarding placement of the hands on the Red Nail is unnecessary. Ironmind Pads do not give the same type of leverage enhancing abilities that other more dense wraps provide. They also do not provide extra padding like other types of wraps and so the pain element is still very high, regardless of technique used. Finally, the one minute time limit forces the bender to complete the bend quickly, requiring mental focus and pain tolerance above that of other certifications using thicker wraps.



(Randall, I will have to submit the pictures demonstrating the techniques in some other way, as they are embedded into the word document)


Members of Focus Group: Jedd Johnson, David Wigren, Casey Emery, Andy Thomas, Aaron Corcorran

[Mike Rinderle]

Great job and thanks for all the work you guys put in!

[Mike Rinderle]

double post. Sorry.

[Randall Strossen]

All -

The Red Nail rules stand.

Based on all the comments - reinforced by the summary and recommendations presented by Jedd Johnson, Aaron Corcorran, David Wigren, Casey Emeryand Andy Thomas - I think the fundamental adequacy of the existing rules has been reinforced, and thanks to the presentation developed by these gentlemen, we have an additional frame of reference that helps to clarify some of the underlying whys and wherefores.

I think this review and the resulting clarification should benefit all benders down the road - making it clear what's acceptable, leaving room for the evolution of bending techniques, and helping IronMind continue to recognize and reward outstanding performances on this classic test of strength.

Thanks much, everyone - have to say how impressed I've been reading all of your posts and watching as many videos as I think I can without having the boss give me the boot.

:;tu)

[Mike Rinderle]

This is great news! Thanks to everyone in the focus group for taking the time to do this correctly.

[Daniel Reinard]

This is great news! Thanks to everyone in the focus group for taking the time to do this correctly.

+1!! Thanks guys

[Jedd Johnson]

All -

The Red Nail rules stand.

Based on all the comments - reinforced by the summary and recommendations presented by Jedd Johnson, Aaron Corcorran, David Wigren, Casey Emeryand Andy Thomas - I think the fundamental adequacy of the existing rules has been reinforced, and thanks to the presentation developed by these gentlemen, we have an additional frame of reference that helps to clarify some of the underlying whys and wherefores.

I think this review and the resulting clarification should benefit all benders down the road - making it clear what's acceptable, leaving room for the evolution of bending techniques, and helping IronMind continue to recognize and reward outstanding performances on this classic test of strength.

Thanks much, everyone - have to say how impressed I've been reading all of your posts and watching as many videos as I think I can without having the boss give me the boot.

:;tu)

Randall,

Thanks for the opportunity to serve. Great to see the final decision.

Jedd

[Casey Emery]

Great news !

[David Wigren]

I'd like to publicly thank Jedd Johnson for taking the initiative on this. Randall asked us all, and everyone in the focus group did their part, but Jedd had the leading role. I want to thank him for that and thank everyone in the focus group for their contribution.

[Casey Emery]

Actually, I didn't do much at all but read over what Jedd, David and Andy hashed out over the weekend. I can't get on my E mail at home. When I got back to work on Monday, they were pretty much done. They deserve the credit for that. Thanks men !

[Andy Thomas]

Although Jedd and David did a great amount of work, I think it was the great volume of benders that participated in the discussion, stating almost to a man that no change was needed that made the difference. Great job everyone.

[Carl Donati Jr]

Great job everyone involved! And good luck to those guys that are getting close to their cert. attempts!

[Bob Lipinski]

Great job Jedd, Aaron, others.

Thank you Mr. Strossen for listen to the internet community of grip competitors. I think most of us want consistent standards held up by experience.

[Mark Shuetrim]

this is a great result in several ways - 1) that no change was deemed necessary, and 2) most importantly that everyone involved in this discussion/proposal maintained a civil tone and expressed their POV without emotion

great to see everyone working together for the greater good - well done to the committee!

[Ben Edwards]

Good work guys getting that all hashed out!

[Matt Cannon]

Great job Jedd, Aaron, others.

Thank you Mr. Strossen for listen to the internet community of grip competitors. I think most of us want consistent standards held up by experience.

Hear, hear!

[Randall Strossen]

Hear, hear!

Here, here:

http://www.ironmind.com/ironmind/opencms/Articles/2011/Mar/Short_Steel_Bender_Richard_Bean_Makes_the_Red_Nail _Roster.html

Congratulations!

[Mike Rinderle]

Here, here:

http://www.ironmind.com/ironmind/opencms/Articles/2011/Mar/Short_Steel_Bender_Richard_Bean_Makes_the_Red_Nail _Roster.html

Congratulations!


Way to go Beaner!!!

[Daniel Reinard]

Here, here:

http://www.ironmind.com/ironmind/opencms/Articles/2011/Mar/Short_Steel_Bender_Richard_Bean_Makes_the_Red_Nail _Roster.html

Congratulations!

Right on Richard!

[Carl Donati Jr]

Great job Richard!

[Ben Edwards]

Great job Richard!

[Jedd Johnson]

Congrats to Richard!

[Randall Strossen]

Check it out - the short steel benders are flexing their muscles:

http://www.ironmind.com/ironmind/opencms/Articles/2011/Mar/Steel_Benders_on_a_Roll-Chris_Mason_Certifies_on_the_IronMind_Red_Nail.htm l

Nice going, Chris!

[Jason Steeves]

Atta boy Richard! Congrats!

[David Wigren]

Congratulations to both of you Richard and Chris!

[Chris Mason]

Thanks David. I'm excited to be on the roster, and in such strong company.

Jedd- I wanted to let you know my short bending guidance has come from the e-book I purchased from you a couple years ago. I read through it twice when I bought it and still refer to it occasionally for assistance exercises. It was a big help on my path to the Red Nail.

Chris

[Mike Rinderle]

Great job to you Chris!

[Jedd Johnson]

Thanks David. I'm excited to be on the roster, and in such strong company.

Jedd- I wanted to let you know my short bending guidance has come from the e-book I purchased from you a couple years ago. I read through it twice when I bought it and still refer to it occasionally for assistance exercises. It was a big help on my path to the Red Nail.

Chris

Thanks Chris! Glad it could be of assistance to you!

Jedd

[Ben Edwards]

Congrats Chris! Nice to see you up on the Red Nail list.

[AaronCorcorran]

Big congrats Richard and Chris!

-Aaron

[John McEneany]

Prior to 3 of the Holle brothers bending a red nail, only Brookfield had
done so. Even though the rules clearly state that only the hands can touch
the nail, the Holle technique is to hold the nail braced against and high up
on the chest and then pushing the nail up into just below the chin, and
start the bend. The final bending of the nail is done by a bracing the
clasped hand against the lower chest and crushing the nail by squeezing the
hands together. Clearly the bend is done by both bracing against the body
and the nail coming in contact with the body. Everyone since and including
the Holles has bent red nails this way. On top of that the nail wrapping is
used not just to portect the hand, but also to gain leverage.

[AaronCorcorran]

John, out of curiousity are you a steel bender? What I mean is have you bent a Red nail or any other steel?

- Aaron

[Tommy Jennings Jr]

Prior to 3 of the Holle brothers bending a red nail, only Brookfield had
done so. Even though the rules clearly state that only the hands can touch
the nail, the Holle technique is to hold the nail braced against and high up
on the chest and then pushing the nail up into just below the chin, and
start the bend. The final bending of the nail is done by a bracing the
clasped hand against the lower chest and crushing the nail by squeezing the
hands together. Clearly the bend is done by both bracing against the body
and the nail coming in contact with the body. Everyone since and including
the Holles has bent red nails this way. On top of that the nail wrapping is
used not just to portect the hand, but also to gain leverage.

"braced" bend.
http://youtu.be/J6HFiAqJ-RE


"non braced" bend.
http://youtu.be/-ccXJ6UDuPU

now you know the difference.
:;tu)
any questions?

[Casey Emery]

As a child I heard tales of a bending style from long ago, a style so dangerous, only a man pure of heart could even attempt it. This ancient style of bending is more difficult, more painful than any other style before or since. Sometimes refered to as " The Old Way", this style of bending was banned three different countries.

Seriously, bending has came a long way in the last 15 years. The steel being bent is bigger in diameter and shorter in length than ever. Some of these guys are so far past a red nail it's not even funny. I have no doubt that John Brookfeild dominated the red nail in a unique fashion. . . . but I also have no doubt that if John Brookfeild was here he would say something to this effect. . .

Bending steel should be about getting stronger and having fun. Don't listen to guy's like this telling your not doing it right.

[Stefan Mianowski]

To me, the original post didn't really seem to say anyone was bending "wrong" or that he didn't know the different between braced/unbraced bending... Maybe I read it differently, but I just saw it as some comments about how unbraced bending has changed to a method which does involve at least some "brace" (In his opinion this might not be completely in line with the stated rules- which is a valid opinion) Guys have evolved the style to use more total body rather than pure wrist, and often do gain leverage from wraps... I dont think newer methods takes away from the current red benders, but more just states how Brookfield did it differently, in what most would consider a more difficult stye.

IMO, total mastery of the red would be the ability to bend it any way: double overhand, double underhand, reverse or the wrist only Brookfield style. In fact, can anyone bend 4 in a row in the 4 different styles? (I'd image 3 in a row with do, du and reverse could be done by quite a few, but perhaps not the "wrist style" as well)

[Randall Strossen]

As a child I heard tales of a bending style from long ago, a style so dangerous, only a man pure of heart could even attempt it. This ancient style of bending is more difficult, more painful than any other style before or since. Sometimes refered to as " The Old Way", this style of bending was banned three different countries.


. . . Yes, it was tough back then—we bent nails in our bare hands, used the rusty one as toothpicks, and had to walk 10 miles to school, uphill both ways . . . :;lh)

Here's what's really the funny part about this bending thing: yes, John Brookfield used to bend in the very traditional style, but guess what? When Gavin Holle introduced a style that was very different—the beginning of the most popular modern style—John didn't disparage it.

In fact, John said, great, go ahead and bend this way if you'd like to—the traditional style is really lower arm-wrist oriented and the folding/crushing style was more upper body, but either way, have fun and have at it.

[Carl Donati Jr]

Prior to 3 of the Holle brothers bending a red nail, only Brookfield had
done so. Even though the rules clearly state that only the hands can touch
the nail, the Holle technique is to hold the nail braced against and high up
on the chest and then pushing the nail up into just below the chin, and
start the bend. The final bending of the nail is done by a bracing the
clasped hand against the lower chest and crushing the nail by squeezing the
hands together. Clearly the bend is done by both bracing against the body
and the nail coming in contact with the body. Everyone since and including
the Holles has bent red nails this way. On top of that the nail wrapping is
used not just to portect the hand, but also to gain leverage.

John-

Not sure what your experience is with bending, but bending DO-style does not necessarily mean the steel needs to be braced against the upper-body. Speaking from my own experiences, I position the bar up near the chin and then generate speed/force diagonally down, away from the body. The hands/nail do not touch the chest or neck; my thumbs usually graze the upper-chest area, but are not bracing or being positioned as leverage. And on the crush... my arms are not long enough to gain leverage (and brace) so I position in a way that has me a little out from the chest pushing in both directions... but not bracing.

Here is a video of a Red bend I did last week (to illustrate what I'm describing). This was a normal "practice" bend and I wasn't intentionally trying to alter my style/form:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rpWGdc3HjWY

[Kevin McFadden]

Prior to 3 of the Holle brothers bending a red nail, only Brookfield had
done so. Even though the rules clearly state that only the hands can touch
the nail, the Holle technique is to hold the nail braced against and high up
on the chest and then pushing the nail up into just below the chin, and
start the bend. The final bending of the nail is done by a bracing the
clasped hand against the lower chest and crushing the nail by squeezing the
hands together. Clearly the bend is done by both bracing against the body
and the nail coming in contact with the body. Everyone since and including
the Holles has bent red nails this way. On top of that the nail wrapping is
used not just to portect the hand, but also to gain leverage.

A few things:

1. Not everyone bends using the high double overhand style you describe. Not only have people trained using different styles, there is at least one certified Red Nail bender that I can think of that did not use the double overhand style to certify.

2. Even Brookfield uses the crushdown method you describe (after bending the nail a certain number of degrees). For anyone that might doubt this, check out his nail bending demo on the "Blueprint for Grip Strength" DVD.

3. There are many people here that with and without wraps. The best benders here are usually better at bending than anyone else regardless of wraps. No amount of wrapping is going to allow someone to bend a nail that they aren't strong enough to bend.

[Kevin McFadden]

Randall,

I think the original thread where this subject is discussed and the thread discussing gripper variances should be made into stickies. These subjects seem to come up quite a bit and both usually devolve into something counterproductive. I just don't see the point in starting a new thread about a subject that has a thread with over 20 pages of comments in it. If nothing was resolved within that 20 pages, it probably isn't going to be resolved.

[David Wigren]

The original poster does make a few valid points. The current IM rules are a bit elusive IMO. But if you were to go by it word for word, then all of the certs should be taken down, including John's original cert. Because the hands are touching against the chest and stomach.
However it's not really reasonable to ask for all the certs to be taken down. Over time though, by the consensus of those involved with steel bending, have come up with more appropriate rules for steel bending.
Perhaps the biggest change is that it has been a separation of "braced" and "unbraced" bending.
Brace bending is where you can do pretty much whatever you want besides from jumping on the steel:D (Although when you start to get really good with the braced techniques I've found they are much more efficient than jumping on the steel, at least not with my 215 lb frame.) Good example of a brace bend is the video Tommy linked in his post.
The Ironmind red/gold cert is what you would call an "unbraced" bending cert. A name that is perhaps contradicting itself a bit, because it is still acceptable for your hands, wrist, elbows and steel to touch anything from your waist up. However the important difference is that no part of your arms or the steel may touch anything below your waist. Because when you only brace or touch your upper body, you can't really get any force behind the hands other than from through the wrists and arms (and you can still do that with wraps touching, when it comes to Ironmind pads leverage is not so much of an issue IMO). However when you brace or touch anything under your waist, you can really get huge amount of force behind the hands and help you fold the nail.
I hope what I've said makes sense lol.

[Casey Emery]

To me, the original post didn't really seem to say anyone was bending "wrong" or that he didn't know the different between braced/unbraced bending... Maybe I read it differently, but I just saw it as some comments about how unbraced bending has changed to a method which does involve at least some "brace" (In his opinion this might not be completely in line with the stated rules- which is a valid opinion) Guys have evolved the style to use more total body rather than pure wrist, and often do gain leverage from wraps... I dont think newer methods takes away from the current red benders, but more just states how Brookfield did it differently, in what most would consider a more difficult stye.

IMO, total mastery of the red would be the ability to bend it any way: double overhand, double underhand, reverse or the wrist only Brookfield style. In fact, can anyone bend 4 in a row in the 4 different styles? (I'd image 3 in a row with do, du and reverse could be done by quite a few, but perhaps not the "wrist style" as well)

Hello Stefan,

I hold John Brookfield in very high respect as a forefather of something we are all just crazy about. I think John desrves all the credit in the world. And I love posts that bring to light his unique talent and drive to be great. But, take a quick look at the original post again. Brookfields name is barely touched upon, instead entire original post uses the criticizm of a style that is different from Brookfields. The original post was intended to question the legitemacy and legality of the DO style, rather that lift up John Brookfield for praise.

I would suggest that a post intended to give John Brookfield the credit he desrves would contain a little more about John Brookfield. . . and a little less about a style that he did not use. Mr McEneany is certainly entitled to his beliefs and can post whatever he likes, but there is a big difference between lifting somebody up by praising thier accomplishments, and lifting somebody up by bashing others accomplishment. I think John Brookfield has more integrity than that.

[Randall Strossen]

Kevin -

Sorry, but I didn't even know what a sticky thread was, even though I agreed with the point you were making about repeating stuff on a new thread—so, now that I know about this tool, let's see if we can use that tool to better manage content on this forum. Thank you for making this recommendation.


David -

Here's where I have landed on this: I think the suggestions you made do help eliminate the confusion about permissible contact, while keeping everything else intact, so IronMind will take a shot at revising the rules with the goal of addressing the points we have been discussing. I will post a draft of the revised rules on the IronMind forum, so that everyone who wants to can chime in. Sound reasonable?


All -

This has been a rock in the shoe for a lot of us, not just John McEneany. I have puzzled over this for years, and think we have now reached a good point for taking the next step forward: short steel bending is not what is was and rather than wringing our hands and trying to force the genie back into the bottle, I think it's time to adjust our thinking about how most people like to do their bending.

[Andy Thomas]

In the "early" days I believe suede or leather wraps were used as well. Several names were on the Red Nail roster before the IMP rule was established. Wraps matter regardless of style.

[Randall Strossen]

In the "early" days I believe suede or leather wraps were used as well. Several names were on the Red Nail roster before the IMP rule was established. Wraps matter regardless of style.

Andy -

It depends on how far back you go.

John Brookfield used a shop rag, for example, because in his bending style you were not hanging off the ends of the nail and you were not actively compressing it.

If you do the latter two things, something like suede wraps give you a huge advantage compared to something like IronMind wraps; and unless you really were into piercing your palms, you'd not be likely to try this with a shop rag or something similar.

[Chris Rice]

I put this same post up on the Gripboard as there is a current thread running there also.

John was (and of course is) a very strong man - but during the period in which he was doing his best bending the "rules" of the game weren't all that well defined as they might be considered today (tongue in cheek). Wraps were all over the place with no standardization in place. He was a strongman in the showman sense of the word - as far as I have been able to find he did not compete so his best bends were probably never documented very well. The videos that I have seen (and being a fellow old guy, I have looked) do not show anything that I have not seen by quite a few others over the years. John has very tough hands which allows him fairly minimal wrapping but this also kept him from bending the really big steel that many others have done recently. The DO list for the Red is pretty long even on the IM site but it's very long when you go with leather wraps - ether double or singles. It's not as long with Double Under or Reverse styles but still quite a few people have done Red Nail or better in those more difficult styles - even myself in my 60s. John is one of the guys I admire but what he has done as far as just plain big bends is no where near the levels some of these guys today are doing. This takes absolutely nothing away from him - times change is all - records are meant to be broken - John showed us the way.

[Randall Strossen]

I put this same post up on the Gripboard as there is a current thread running there also.

John was (and of course is) a very strong man - but during the period in which he was doing his best bending the "rules" of the game weren't all that well defined as they might be considered today (tongue in cheek). Wraps were all over the place with no standardization in place. He was a strongman in the showman sense of the word - as far as I have been able to find he did not compete so his best bends were probably never documented very well. The videos that I have seen (and being a fellow old guy, I have looked) do not show anything that I have not seen by quite a few others over the years. John has very tough hands which allows him fairly minimal wrapping but this also kept him from bending the really big steel that many others have done recently. The DO list for the Red is pretty long even on the IM site but it's very long when you go with leather wraps - ether double or singles. It's not as long with Double Under or Reverse styles but still quite a few people have done Red Nail or better in those more difficult styles - even myself in my 60s. John is one of the guys I admire but what he has done as far as just plain big bends is no where near the levels some of these guys today are doing. This takes absolutely nothing away from him - times change is all - records are meant to be broken - John showed us the way.


Chris -

I agree with a lot of what you've written until your last two sentences.

The whole point being raised by guys like John McEneany is that comparing a Brookfield-style bend of the Red Nail to what's popular today is like comparing a 600 lb. raw bench press to a triple ply 800 or an IPF squat to a WPO squat: it's apples and oranges and the traditionalists rankle when they see the huge numbers because they know that they were not achieved under the same conditions as the original high water marks.

So, I think the correct conclusion is that styles evolve, bending went the way of least resistance, and that doesn't automatically mean the sky is falling.

[John McEneany]

There is a John Brookfield video in which he demonstrates the bending a 60 D nail. He does use wraps, in his case a washcloth. He places his index finges together in the center of the nail holding it at waist level. He then bends it. He advises against using the wraps in such a way that you are pusing in with the palms. He states this could cause nerve damage. He is bending the nail using hand and wrist strength rather than the crushing stength of his shoulders and chest. So bending rather than crushing. He does finish the bend the same way everyone does.

[John McEneany]

Hey Casey - The reason you don't gain any leverage with ironmind pads is because you don't actually grip the pads and hold them in place during a bend. This is why you wrap them up and then put rubber bands on to keep them secure. By doing that you miss out on a HUGE part of what it takes to bend steel. The rubber band wrap/push and fold techniques that you and many other guys use may get steel bent but it's not the same as good old fashioned wrist torque. Whether I am on the red nail roster or not, I don't think too may guys can bend Grade 5 Bolts with the pads touching and hands touching at the start of a bend. Think about it.

Can you bend a Grade 5 Bolt like this?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hapYIP13MwI

If you can, kick a**, I'd like to see the video. Good luck with your wrist training. Save the rubber bands for little children and green plastic army men.

Exactly right!

[Andy Thomas]

Andy -

It depends on how far back you go.

John Brookfield used a shop rag, for example, because in his bending style you were not hanging off the ends of the nail and you were not actively compressing it.

If you do the latter two things, something like suede wraps give you a huge advantage compared to something like IronMind wraps; and unless you really were into piercing your palms, you'd not be likely to try this with a shop rag or something similar.

How far back does it go Randall? I know that some of the earlier Red certs were done in suede/leather. What year did the IMP rule come into play? I am a big fan of IMPs- like Chris mentioned- there is a big difference between bending a Red in IMPs vs suede/leather...that's why the Red roster is much smaller than another popular cert list featuring a 5/16 x7" CRS bar.

While you may be able to hang IMPs off the end of a Red, you certainly can not just compress the ends towards each other and expect the bar to bend. You do have to hold the bar, AND force the ends down and away, not just towards one another. Bending a Red in IMPs does require the bar to be in the hands due to the wraps.

I am all too familiar with piercing my palm with a bar- barehand bend gone wrong. Learning experience.

It always interests me that when these discussions come up, it is never brought up by guys that can reverse/DU Red Nails in IMPs. It seems they would have the most to gain by complaining. The thing is, those guys have bent the Red DO as well and realize that it still takes work to get to that level. I don't hear Adam Glass, Paul Knight or David Wigren complaining about the DO style- especially in IMPs. It always seems to be some one that doesn't bend or doesn't bend on a regular basis. Why is that do you think?

[Chris Rice]

There is a John Brookfield video in which he demonstrates the bending a 60 D nail. He does use wraps, in his case a washcloth. He places his index finges together in the center of the nail holding it at waist level. He then bends it. He advises against using the wraps in such a way that you are pusing in with the palms. He states this could cause nerve damage. He is bending the nail using hand and wrist strength rather than the crushing stength of his shoulders and chest. So bending rather than crushing. He does finish the bend the same way everyone does.

John I have reversed more than a few 60 pennies in a shop rag wrap with fingerand thumb together in the middle - hurt like the devil - the pain was a much bigger deal than the strength of the bend though. I've done Reds and cut Reds in leather - the best "reverse" bend I ever did was in single leathers no bigger than IM pads (for anyone intersted it was a 6" piece of drill rod not quite equal to a 6" cut Red Nail) - both double and single wraps and both Double Overhand at chest level and reverse - I'm not flexible enough to do the under the chin style at all - my hands do touch my chest but not in any meaningful or helpful way.

And Randall - I haven't figured out how to do the double quotes in the same thread thing yet :) but I certainly recognise that there is no comparison between a rag for a wrap and double leathers for a wrap - but there is also no comparison with what has been bent in a rag and what has and is being done by the best benders of today. Johns style down by his waist is different than even much older steel benders used long before John was born (does that mean his style is not "pure"?) - I just can't buy that bending is not allowed to evolve any more than Olympic Lifting or any thing else in the strength world has and will continue to change over time. It that right or wrong - I have no clue but time stands still for no man I think the saying goes. It two different games to me. John Brookfield was a heck of a bender - he used the style that worked best for him and his goals at that time in history - I have all the respect in the world for him - Zass - Slim - Atom etc. These guys have been my idols and the guys I wanted to emulate for decades now. What would John have bent in his prime with Leather or even IM pads - who knows - no doubt in my mind it would have been big steel.

[Randall Strossen]

How far back does it go Randall? I know that some of the earlier Red certs were done in suede/leather. What year did the IMP rule come into play? I am a big fan of IMPs- like Chris mentioned- there is a big difference between bending a Red in IMPs vs suede/leather...that's why the Red roster is much smaller than another popular cert list featuring a 5/16 x7" CRS bar.

While you may be able to hang IMPs off the end of a Red, you certainly can not just compress the ends towards each other and expect the bar to bend. You do have to hold the bar, AND force the ends down and away, not just towards one another. Bending a Red in IMPs does require the bar to be in the hands due to the wraps.

I am all too familiar with piercing my palm with a bar- barehand bend gone wrong. Learning experience.

It always interests me that when these discussions come up, it is never brought up by guys that can reverse/DU Red Nails in IMPs. It seems they would have the most to gain by complaining. The thing is, those guys have bent the Red DO as well and realize that it still takes work to get to that level. I don't hear Adam Glass, Paul Knight or David Wigren complaining about the DO style- especially in IMPs. It always seems to be some one that doesn't bend or doesn't bend on a regular basis. Why is that do you think?


Andy -

Off the top of my head, I can't rattle off the date when the IronMind pads were required, but here's how it happened.

We were considering a variety of imperfect, headache-inducing ways to curb some things that seemed excessive and then Steve McGranahan said, Why don't you just require IronMind pads because that will automatically limit that stuff.

Hmm, we thought, sounds like a pretty easy way to cover a lot of ground, so that's what we did and maybe someone here can put a finger on the date that happened.

For the guys who bend like Brookfield, the wrap is incidental, but for some styles, it's everything—it was an eye opener for me when I saw some of the prep that goes into some short bends and it reminded me of a powerlifter getting stuffed into his suit, wrapped and ready to roll . . . not my cup of tea.

Oh, yes, before someone asks, the most I ever bent was an IronMind Blue, reverse, no special training—just from whatever wrist transfer came from doing snatches and clean & jerks, I guess, and yes, it was with IronMind pads. :;st)

[Bill Piche]

I am no bender and never tried it actually. And, for me personally I got the same response that Randy got when I would see someone taking all this methodical time to wrap the nails just right and with certain materials, etc. Ok, since I tend to get on rants about the term "raw" used in powerlifting (raw is raw..this means no belt to me -- the belt is just artificial torso/abs to push against), why isn't a bend literally with bare hands and out in front of the body so only the hands/wrists can be used?

[Chris Rice]

A long time ago I brought up the idea that all bars be so long (and fingers so close together) that you could not put your hands off the ends - I was laughed at. But try it before you dismiss it totally - it's very hard that way and you cannot "pistol grip" - plus bigger pads don't matter much either. On short stock everyone's hands are somewhat off the ends just because the bar is shorter than the width of your two hands so even in a rag with fingers touching - you are doing the "pistol grip" just a little. Just me personally but I think bare handed bending is a good way to get hurt.

Bare Handed
Thin Rag
IM Pads
Benders Battlefield Pads
Single Leather
Double Leather

This is a short list of options - there could obviously be many more - each way allows more hand protection and more leverage advantage and therefore bigger bends

[Steve Weiner]

Andy -

Off the top of my head, I can't rattle off the date when the IronMind pads were required, but here's how it happened.

We were considering a variety of imperfect, headache-inducing ways to curb some things that seemed excessive and then Steve McGranahan said, Why don't you just require IronMind pads because that will automatically limit that stuff.

Hmm, we thought, sounds like a pretty easy way to cover a lot of ground, so that's what we did and maybe someone here can put a finger on the date that happened.

For the guys who bend like Brookfield, the wrap is incidental, but for some styles, it's everything—it was an eye opener for me when I saw some of the prep that goes into some short bends and it reminded me of a powerlifter getting stuffed into his suit, wrapped and ready to roll . . . not my cup of tea.

Oh, yes, before someone asks, the most I ever bent was an IronMind Blue, reverse, no special training—just from whatever wrist transfer came from doing snatches and clean & jerks, I guess, and yes, it was with IronMind pads. :;st)


Randy,

You may not remember when the Ironmind pads became a requirement, but I can refresh your memory about the 60 second time limit. That came in February 2004.

Steve

[Andy Thomas]

I agree with Chris' assessment of the wraps and with each step up allowing more leverage and bigger bends. If you want the ultimate bending test then throw all wraps out the window. Barehand bending is the ultimate bending test. Adding anything to the bar or hand makes the bend easier- except WD-40- that makes the bend harder.:) I have bent bars, bolts, and shoes with paper towels, phone book pages, etc. and they all make it easier than just using your bare hands. So as long as we are talking about what is harder, easier, more pure, etc. just know that it starts and ends with barehand bending.

Actually barehand bending can be done quite safely if you stay within your ability. Injuries occur typically when guys try to push a little too far. I have bent barehand a good bit, and the only significant injury that occurred was due to my own stupidity. I have actually been injured much worse bending in wraps than without them.

So if we are talking pure bending test then barehand is it. All wraps make the bend easier, paper towels, IMPs, suede doubles, doesn't matter, they all make the bend easier.

[Zach Kasukonis]

So how about Ironmind opens a new certification for barehand bending the red nail, and then all those who take issue with us cheaters for using wraps and different styles can just get themselves on the "pure" list!

[Tommy Jennings Jr]

no need for a rule change. i vote against it.
word.

[John McCarter]

i dont know guys... i took a bundle of reds to the shop, AND to the Naval base here in Ft Worth, wrapped up some reds in (thick leathers) for these guys, and not a single one of them even budged one. in ANY style. and im talkin close to 50 guys between both stops.. and one really big female.. haha! and most of the cats i know and work with, are some young, stout fellas to say the least..
with that said, these guys werent even bending under official rules and still couldnt make it happen.. i would hate to throw in the extra challenge of wrapping the nails in IMP's...
bottom line is, most guys (even strong guys) dont stand a chance on a red nail... even with Double Overhand style, AND thick leathers.
so no need for a rule change. i vote against it.
word?..

I hear you on how bad those Red's can be (I've only been able to bend about 4 of em so far). But any how, great job on killing the Red's.

[David Wigren]

David -

Here's where I have landed on this: I think the suggestions you made do help eliminate the confusion about permissible contact, while keeping everything else intact, so IronMind will take a shot at revising the rules with the goal of addressing the points we have been discussing. I will post a draft of the revised rules on the IronMind forum, so that everyone who wants to can chime in. Sound reasonable?


Sounds like an excellent idea!:D

I just wanted to comment about some of the stuff guys have been talking about lately in this thread. Look, I think most of us are past the whole DO/folding debate. The Ironmind Red nail cert have always been what I would call a free style cert. Sure for 90% of us the DO (double overhand style) is the mechanically most efficient way to bend a nail. We all recognize that. And if anyone wants to do it the hard way by bending the bar with reverse or DU style with a close grip (a wide grip DU can be almost as efficient as a DO) we will all recognize that too.
Brookfield gets alot of respect for bending the red in a style that not many can do, sure he didn't know about the DO style back then, but nonetheless he bent the red in a harder fashion. James Smith and Chad Rickicki bent the red DU, and they get the extra respect for that. Rex Hubbard reversed his I think, and there might be others I'm forgetting.
My point is that if you want to do it the harder way go ahead, more power(and respect) to you! But don't be a B**** and try to force everyone else to do it your way. Imagine if Kinney said that people were closing grippers to fast and lobbied for a 3 second close count and a grind in the end. Or if Samuelsson said that people were cheating for using 4 fingers instead of just 3.

[David Wigren]

I am no bender and never tried it actually. And, for me personally I got the same response that Randy got when I would see someone taking all this methodical time to wrap the nails just right and with certain materials, etc. Ok, since I tend to get on rants about the term "raw" used in powerlifting (raw is raw..this means no belt to me -- the belt is just artificial torso/abs to push against), why isn't a bend literally with bare hands and out in front of the body so only the hands/wrists can be used?

Because pretty quickly your barehanded bending will not be limited by your wrist strength, it will be limited by your skin. Which will adapt through training, but IMO skin toughness/thickness is not what the Ironmind Red nail cert should be testing.

I can understand how people see the methodical wrapping as strange. But since the bar and wraps are not just the equipment used, they are the implement as well. Imagine if you had to build your bench with cardboard before you could lay down on it to bench. Sure the strongest guys will still bench huge numbers while laying on a soft spongy pile of cardboard, but they'll lose 15%-30% had they packed the cardboard in to a neat and hard pile with as little give as possible.
Bending is already "raw" in the sense that you're not allowed to wrap your wrists, hands or elbows. And since the wraps are already regulated by what wraps you can use (Ironmind wraps) I see no need to further regulate it. Unless people start to show up with a specialized bending shirt on:;lh) then I see the point to regulate that, or preferably just a straight ban.

[Casey Emery]

Talking to Paul the other night about this. We ended up saying " They should just let David W handle the whole thing, that guy has his head on straight." The two previous posts only solidify our thoughts.

[Andy Thomas]

Talking to Paul the other night about this. We ended up saying " They should just let David W handle the whole thing, that guy has his head on straight." The two previous posts only solidify our thoughts.

That's a fact. David is level headed and impartial for sure. Knows as much or more about steel bending than most of the guys involved in it.

[Randall Strossen]

Below is what I am proposing for the Red/Gold nail rules.

Please note that this is not a radical departure from what is currently in place, but the point of this change is to acknowledge the variety of bending styles that is already being used, within the spirit of this being an unbraced bend (as David Wigren has pointed out), and to end controversy about contact during the bend.

Here is what I am proposing:


There are several recognized methods for legitimately bending an IronMind Red Nail or a Gold Nail, but all are unbraced. For example, you can bend the Red or Gold Nail with your hands at:

waist level, bending the nail downward into a U
chest level, bending the nail downward into a U
head or chest level, bending the nail downward into a U

Other variations of these are acceptable, given these rules:

1. You are bending an authentic IronMind Red Nail™ or Gold Nail™ that has not been modified in any way.
2. Only genuine IronMind Bending Pads are used; they cannot be modified in any way. Although the use of chalk is permitted, no accessories (such as rubber bands) can be added to the pads and used during the bend.
3. The bender is not allowed to use any wraps, tape or any other supporting material on his body.
4. No part of the bender’s arms or hands may touch the body below the waist level.
5. The nail is bent into a U shape in less than one minute with the legs of the nail spread no more than 2 inches at the completion of the bend.


###

Comments?

[Andy Thomas]

Below is what I am proposing for the Red/Gold nail rules.

Please note that this is not a radical departure from what is currently in place, but the point of this change is to acknowledge the variety of bending styles that is already being used, within the spirit of this being an unbraced bend (as David Wigren has pointed out), and to end controversy about contact during the bend.

Here is what I am proposing:


There are several recognized methods for legitimately bending an IronMind Red Nail or a Gold Nail, but all are unbraced. For example, you can bend the Red or Gold Nail with your hands at:

waist level, bending the nail downward into a U
chest level, bending the nail downward into a U
head or chest level, bending the nail downward into a U

Other variations of these are acceptable, given these rules:

1. You are bending an authentic IronMind Red Nail™ or Gold Nail™ that has not been modified in any way.
2. Only genuine IronMind Bending Pads are used; they cannot be modified in any way. Although the use of chalk is permitted, no accessories (such as rubber bands) can be added to the pads and used during the bend.
3. The bender is not allowed to use any wraps, tape or any other supporting material on his body.
4. No part of the bender’s arms or hands may touch the body below the waist level.
5. The nail is bent into a U shape in less than one minute with the legs of the nail spread no more than 2 inches at the completion of the bend.


###

Comments?

I am asking this with all due respect Dr. Strossen, where are the differences vs what was originally posted by David after the Red Nail "think tank"?

These rules seem fair and clear if my aging eyes are reading them correctly.

[Tommy Jennings Jr]

Below is what I am proposing for the Red/Gold nail rules.

Please note that this is not a radical departure from what is currently in place, but the point of this change is to acknowledge the variety of bending styles that is already being used, within the spirit of this being an unbraced bend (as David Wigren has pointed out), and to end controversy about contact during the bend.

Here is what I am proposing:


There are several recognized methods for legitimately bending an IronMind Red Nail or a Gold Nail, but all are unbraced. For example, you can bend the Red or Gold Nail with your hands at:

waist level, bending the nail downward into a U
chest level, bending the nail downward into a U
head or chest level, bending the nail downward into a U

Other variations of these are acceptable, given these rules:

1. You are bending an authentic IronMind Red Nail™ or Gold Nail™ that has not been modified in any way.
2. Only genuine IronMind Bending Pads are used; they cannot be modified in any way. Although the use of chalk is permitted, no accessories (such as rubber bands) can be added to the pads and used during the bend.
3. The bender is not allowed to use any wraps, tape or any other supporting material on his body.
4. No part of the bender’s arms or hands may touch the body below the waist level.
5. The nail is bent into a U shape in less than one minute with the legs of the nail spread no more than 2 inches at the completion of the bend.


###

Comments?

AWSOME! great job!

[Paul Knight]

Below is what I am proposing for the Red/Gold nail rules.

Please note that this is not a radical departure from what is currently in place, but the point of this change is to acknowledge the variety of bending styles that is already being used, within the spirit of this being an unbraced bend (as David Wigren has pointed out), and to end controversy about contact during the bend.

Here is what I am proposing:


There are several recognized methods for legitimately bending an IronMind Red Nail or a Gold Nail, but all are unbraced. For example, you can bend the Red or Gold Nail with your hands at:

waist level, bending the nail downward into a U
chest level, bending the nail downward into a U
head or chest level, bending the nail downward into a U

Other variations of these are acceptable, given these rules:

1. You are bending an authentic IronMind Red Nail™ or Gold Nail™ that has not been modified in any way.
2. Only genuine IronMind Bending Pads are used; they cannot be modified in any way. Although the use of chalk is permitted, no accessories (such as rubber bands) can be added to the pads and used during the bend.
3. The bender is not allowed to use any wraps, tape or any other supporting material on his body.
4. No part of the bender’s arms or hands may touch the body below the waist level.
5. The nail is bent into a U shape in less than one minute with the legs of the nail spread no more than 2 inches at the completion of the bend.


###

Comments?

I like it ... puts a lot of the questions to rest.

Though I wish video is a requirement too. How does everyone else feel about that? For all the Ironmind certs really.

[Kevin McFadden]

I like it ... puts a lot of the questions to rest.

Though I wish video is a requirement too. How does everyone else feel about that? For all the Ironmind certs really.

Instead of a video requirement for each cert (even though it would be cool), I would like to see a video demonstration on the cert page for how a cert should be performed and judged. The video should include do's and dont's.

[David Wigren]

Below is what I am proposing for the Red/Gold nail rules.

Please note that this is not a radical departure from what is currently in place, but the point of this change is to acknowledge the variety of bending styles that is already being used, within the spirit of this being an unbraced bend (as David Wigren has pointed out), and to end controversy about contact during the bend.

Here is what I am proposing:


There are several recognized methods for legitimately bending an IronMind Red Nail or a Gold Nail, but all are unbraced. For example, you can bend the Red or Gold Nail with your hands at:

waist level, bending the nail downward into a U
chest level, bending the nail downward into a U
head or chest level, bending the nail downward into a U

Other variations of these are acceptable, given these rules:

1. You are bending an authentic IronMind Red Nail™ or Gold Nail™ that has not been modified in any way.
2. Only genuine IronMind Bending Pads are used; they cannot be modified in any way. Although the use of chalk is permitted, no accessories (such as rubber bands) can be added to the pads and used during the bend.
3. The bender is not allowed to use any wraps, tape or any other supporting material on his body.
4. No part of the bender’s arms or hands may touch the body below the waist level.
5. The nail is bent into a U shape in less than one minute with the legs of the nail spread no more than 2 inches at the completion of the bend.


###

Comments?

That is excellent! It is short and simple, just like how it should be. If the rules get to lengthy, chances are that the judge might not be able to keep track of them all at once during the bend. But this is very simple and easy to follow. Excellent work!

Andy, It's a slightly expanded version of what I proposed earlier. The ideas are obviously the same, but I didn't address the permitted use of chalk. And I only included restrictions about wrapping the arms, whereas Randall and those at Ironmind looks to have issued a rule against not allowing any supporting material anywhere on the body. Which is great because it excludes the use of potential "bending shirts". Sure the idea of a bending shirt might seem silly today, and indeed it would not be accepted today. But who knows what people will be doing 15-20 years from now.

These rules follows the spirit of the challenge while not contradicting the achievements made by us already on the red nail list.
Very good work!:;tu)

[Paul Knight]

a bending shirt is an interesting idea ... much like a bench shirt I suppose. I think the idea of a shirt would probably make a bar easier to crush, but it seems like, to me, that it would make it harder to get into the DO possition?

[Randall Strossen]

I am asking this with all due respect Dr. Strossen, where are the differences vs what was originally posted by David after the Red Nail "think tank"?

These rules seem fair and clear if my aging eyes are reading them correctly.

Andy -

It's a good time to summarize the long and winding road we've been traveling on this topic:

1) I asked for a review of the Red Nail rules, citing concerns, and suggested a few guys who could spearhead this effort.
2) They came back with the recommendation that the rules were fine as they were written.
3) Some of us at least continued to think the rules needed reform as they created confusion on the battlefield of bending ("He cheated . . . What do you call that? . . . Look at where his chin was . . . In the old days . . . Move on . . .").
4) David Wigren subsequently recommended that the primary focus should be on recognizing that the Red/Gold Nail bends were unbraced and he suggested a revision of the key elements from the existing rules to reflect this.
5) The Evil Dr. Strossen thought David had hit the nail on the head, so rather than continuing with a situation that had people wigging out on a regular basis, he suggested incorporating this material into a new set of rules which he then put out for review and discussion.

[Andy Thomas]

Andy -

It's a good time to summarize the long and winding road we've been traveling on this topic:

1) I asked for a review of the Red Nail rules, citing concerns, and suggested a few guys who could spearhead this effort.
2) They came back with the recommendation that the rules were fine as they were written.
3) Some of us at least continued to think the rules needed reform as they created confusion on the battlefield of bending ("He cheated . . . What do you call that? . . . Look at where his chin was . . . In the old days . . . Move on . . .").
4) David Wigren subsequently recommended that the primary focus should be on recognizing that the Red/Gold Nail bends were unbraced and he suggested a revision of the key elements from the existing rules to reflect this.
5) The Evil Dr. Strossen thought David had hit the nail on the head, so rather than continuing with a situation that had people wigging out on a regular basis, he suggested incorporating this material into a new set of rules which he then put out for review and discussion.

Excellent! Thank you. I am very, very, glad that the Red Nail cert can continue on as it has been, good stuff.

[Casey Emery]

Good set of rules there. Clear and to the point. Nice work.

On a side note, when I watched the video of Tommy Jennings red nail cert, I thought to myself. . . . . Are they going to measure the length or not !? :;lh) I hope it's been long enough so that we can all laugh at that one.

[Randall Strossen]

Good set of rules there. Clear and to the point. Nice work.

On a side note, when I watched the video of Tommy Jennings red nail cert, I thought to myself. . . . . Are they going to measure the length or not !? :;lh) I hope it's been long enough so that we can all laugh at that one.


Had me laughing too!

[Randall Strossen]

Excellent! Thank you. I am very, very, glad that the Red Nail cert can continue on as it has been, good stuff.

. . . and on to the Gold Nail!