Has time passed you by?

[Andy Thomas]

I think that IronMind has done more for grip and bending than any other single entity. Recent developments seem to indicate that IronMind will continue to push both endeavors forward and for that we are grateful.

However, I have serious concerns for the IM forum. Where it could be a meeting of minds, with the intent of growing both pursuits, it seems that isn't to be. Those with the most experience speak the least, we could learn, and grow from these individuals, but they seem to lurk and post when they feel the need to support a friend, or reprimand a newer member. Then there are those individuals that take it upon themselves to belittle anyone and everyone they choose, based off their "experience".....little of which actually resides in grip or bending.

Moderators complain about videos, out of touch members complain about "language" and "abbreviations" etc. From what I have seen, this forum has more potential than most, due to the experience of the membership, but it seems that most of the experienced members are not interested in teaching or sharing. They seem more interested in, inhibiting, belittling, and insulting those looking to climb the mountain, and some/one just seem really out of touch with the grip/bending community.

I hope this forum grows. I hope we are all better because of it, but sadly, currently, this isn't fertile soil.

[Mike Corlett]

This is the third thead started in this section. The second one was "Language/Communication", started by Kim Wood. The same 3 sentence opening paragraph that I immediately responded as the first post in answer to his opening comments, applies to your opening comments, word for word.

But this is the IronMind Forum, and it is not like the others. We are not going to get hung up on where a thread falls. The IronMind Forum, for better or worse, is more "free form" than others. The "Moderators" never caucus. I am the most vocal of any of the Moderators in the Moderator section, which is rarely used by any of us. Usually I am asking for a thread to be shut down, or asking that a member be kicked off. To date, not one thread has been shut down, and not one member has been kicked off. That says something about the operation that RS is running. He is a big believer in Free Speech, and I say that in a private business where your products are your lifeline, a forum like this is a dangerous thing to be operating. Sometimes I am amazed at the flat out bad manners that are exhibited by members - - it reminds me of someone being invited to a party at a person's house, and then the invitee publically insulting the host's home, food, and party.

Someone eloquently stated, perhaps it was you, that there had not been an articulated vision. Perhaps those are not the right words that I am remembering. No question in my mind that Randy would have been shooting for a forum version of MILO. And there is no question in my mind, that, given the nature of Internet forums, this can never be achieved. Don't get me wrong, this is the best of its kind, and it can certainly do better. But folks can't be narrowly focused, or worse, focused only on themselves if this is going to happen.

My favorite days of the forum were the first two weeks of May, 2010. There were only a handful of members. Someone from Eastern Europe would ask a basic question, and I would try to answer it very simply. As new members came on, they would jump in and answer. A little after that, some members would not be anwering the questions, but changing the subject and convincing the person who was asking the question that he really needed something else. The basic questions stopped being asked. Whose fault is that? Free Speech can mean bad manners rule.

Speaking of bad manners, let me address the subject of Kim Wood. He sure threatens a lot of people, and upsets more than a few, including world class athletes who lurk here. I have gotten the impression that some hardcore grip guys do not think he knows what he is talking about concerning grip. The reality is that he was a pioneer in the training of grip for hundreds long before many of the serious grip people were born. Bench presses with 3 inch bars in the 1980s? Inch dumbbell replicas in the weight room of a NFL team in the 1990s? Pragmatic useful functional training of the grip so that you can be a better athlete in the 1970s? Here is a guy who seems to hate bodybuilders. He was Sergio Oliva's training partner 40 years ago! Every time Kim has stepped over the line on the forum, Randy has stepped in, and Kim has stepped back. That is not the case with many others. Yes, he is still here, just as the sniping petty commentators are as well. But with Wood, it is not his intelligence, his humor, his experience, etc that I admire most. The man has wisdom. In 2005, after accidentally sharing a breakfast with him, my son, now 29 years old, had a life-changing experience just listening to Kim talk. Life-changing in a good way. That had never happened before in his life. Yes, there has been snickering among members that some people are "special". When you can change a pattern of behavior for life by someone just being around you for two hours, you have earned the right to snicker. No, he is not out of touch with much. But he ain't no bender, and never will be...
I appreciate your comments and have my own concerns. My biggest concern is that the bar is not set high enough, and at times there is fighting to lower it further.

[David Wigren]

Very good post Andy!
Interesting observation Andy. I've noticed it myself, that there seems to be a clashing of the minds here. Ironmind seems to have become the common ground for different groups to interact with each other. These "groups" usually never interact, and coincidentally have different ideas about things.
However I'm a firm believer in the old quote that:
"While a rationalist might be the minority in a single group. If you take all the groups in the world and clash them together, the rationalists suddenly become the vast majority, because regardless of where a rationalist lives, they all think alike"
I'm sure I butchered that quote beyond belief, haha. But I think you know what I'm saying.
It is obvious that we will have different ideas about different things. And I'm sure that as we develop, and as I develop, I will learn that I was wrong about some things and right about other things.
And during that time I try to leave everything on the table. And I believe that it is exactly why I have become so successful on the horseshoes, because I was able to see that my technique was a dead end. And instead of sitting in that comfortzone doing what I've always done, I drastically changed my technique and started to work in new directions, and surely after time, it turned out to be WAY more effective than my previous technique. My technique has in some sense evolved.
And so will we all evolve. Bad ideas slowly die out, while good ideas grows stronger.

I just hope that in that process that we can all be nice to each other:;lh)

[Andy Thomas]

Mike, thank you for the in-depth reply, it was quite informative. I think I do need to clarify a couple of things though. Neither my thread topic, nor any of my comments were directed at Dr. Strossen. I actually am a big fan of his. I have admired the way he runs this forum- allowing free speech, directly taking questions, etc. I also admire the way he has supported steel bending. I joined this forum when the Red Nail rules were being reviewed and I was very impressed with how Dr. Strossen handled the whole situation. So if any of my comments seem directed at him, it isn't the case.

While I knew that Mr. Wood had some grip experience, I did not know it was to the level that you mentioned in your post. I was incorrect.

David, I agree that the varied groups on the IM forum will have different ideas and views, but I had hoped to see some these varied ideas- as related to technique, shared. You mentioned changing your horseshoe technique and getting better results, that's what could be available here, nothing would be more fruitful than a free flowing exchange of ideas between all of the different members here- elite and novice.

[Mike Corlett]

Neither my thread topic, nor any of my comments were directed at Dr. Strossen. I actually am a big fan of his. I have admired the way he runs this forum- allowing free speech, directly taking questions, etc. I also admire the way he has supported steel bending. I joined this forum when the Red Nail rules were being reviewed and I was very impressed with how Dr. Strossen handled the whole situation. So if any of my comments seem directed at him, it isn't the case.



I know that you were not taking shots at him. But like a lot of things, sometimes someone's biggest strength becomes the biggest weakness. By "allowing" free speech to occur, with the larger pool of members, there is going to be some strange stuff posted.

Anyone can squeeze a gripper. Consequently, that area is going to have the most controversy, as the bar is lower for having an experience that you can share with others. Not everyone can bend steel. The bender crowd is going to be tighter, and will be more sensitive to disagreements. The Strongman crowd is an interesting mix. We have World Class athletes, and we have guys who are basically fans, probably the widest spread of experience that exists on the forum.

I have pitched the AOBS dinner many times. Very few respond or seem interested. It probably has the highest number of top level benders in the world, past and present, who are NOT on any list, who gather and talk. The average age of AOBS attendees is around 60, and it would be 10 years older if the benders were not there. I don't think I have ever brought a single one of these guys' names up, here or the gripboard. Ever heard of someone named Tom "the Irish Anvil" Kelly? Ask Pat P what his(Mr. Anvil's) level of horseshoe bending talent is. Is he on any forum? I don't know, maybe he is. Never seen him brought up here or the Gripboard. Maybe I don't read enough or the right places. The general population of the country is skeptical of information from "the Internet". On the other hand, there are people so plugged in to the Internet, don't seem to think that there is a world out there that existed or exists now unless it WAS on the Internet.

Andy, I am not aiming this at you. I am going to pains to explain that it takes a very broad view to get some of this stuff in its proper perspective.

No one would ever accuse Stan Pleskun of being an intellectual. I plan on reading this post to him this weekend, including the previous sentence. One of the last things he said to me the other night was "Mike, with this Internet stuff, it seems to me that people don't know how to write any more". This was after he calmed down and 5 minutes after he ranted to me, "Bending? They want to see Bending? I will bend some 7/8 inch bars for them, anyone seen that before?" To which I said to the guy turning 53 next month, "Stan, I have no idea".

[Dan Cenidoza]

I used to be a lot more active on the message boards but I realized that the more time you spend on internet forums the less productive you are. I pick and choose where to get involved a lot more conservatively these days. There are plenty of guys out there willing to giving lifting advice. I'm more interested in exchanging deeper ideas. Kim is a friend of mine and I was at the breakfast that Mike spoke about. The man does have wisdom and he presents it in a way that causes deep thinking (and usually controversy too). Some people don't like it, hell, I don't always like it, but I see how it can "create an environment where learning takes place". You could either learn and grow, bitch and moan, or dismiss it altogether; and that goes for anything anyone says here.

[Mike Corlett]

While I knew that Mr. Wood had some grip experience, I did not know it was to the level that you mentioned in your post. I was incorrect.



About 6 months ago, in a republished collection of his "Steel Tip Newsletter", I read what Dr. Ken Leistner had to say concerning KW's grip training with NFL players. The publication era was 1985-87. At the time, I called my son, we talked about it, and we were both surprised, as in the half dozen times we had met him, he never discussed grip. I remember the first time I met him (at the accidental breakfast), he basically asked me "what are you, are you a collector or historian (probably the lowest forms of AOBS attendee in his view)?" My reply was "No, I am a Grip Guy". He grunted, "Grip guy, eh?", indicating that it was maybe the second lowest form on the Iron Game Ladder. :;hy) He likes my son. But me, or my brother, I can't say. We pull too many punches for his liking...

[Chris Rice]

The short answer is Yep - it certainly has.

I started lifting in 1959 and have been at it ever since. The Grip Board (2003) was my first experience with forums, then Go Heavy on the Olympic Lifting side of things (it’s as big a train wreck as the GB ever was). My experience has been interesting in many ways. If not for the Grip Board, Go Heavy, and the sport of Grip and Olympic Lifting – I would never have met the vast majority of people in the strength world that I have had the pleasure of getting to know. There are people all over the world that I now count as friends because of Grip, Olympic Lifting, Highland Games, Strongman, climbing etc. Before the Grip Board I had just merrily trained away in my little gym and was quite content. I would venture out and do about anything that came up – long wilderness trips, endurance feats, motorcycles racing – you name it, I’d go do it. I occasionally read about some feat of strength that I would try to duplicate but in general my training was a very personal journey to allow me to do the things I enjoyed better. Then came the Forums – and things changed for me – in some ways for the better – and some ways not so much. I spent too much time trying to get stronger in more focused areas and paid the price for that by losing ground in my all around ability to climb and move smoothly. Instead of waking up looking at the tip of Mt Everest over the Lhotse – Nuptse wall – I’d watch the sun come up out of the windshield of my van on the way to a contest some where – and while I enjoy competing a lot – it has taken on too large a role in my life. I spend too much time reading about the minutia of life and not enough time living it. I have deliberately been going to many other forums and pretty much without exception – they are all the same. My ability to express myself in words in a forum setting seems very limited – as what I try to say and the way people perceive it are quite different at times. The way forward that I see for Grip seems fairly different than the vision many others have – and I don’t want the fight anymore. So I have backed off on posting – and plan to continue that trend. I have enjoyed trying to see where I stand in the scheme of things in the strength world – competition lists and certifications of different kinds and thought I did OK for my size, age, and amount of specialization I was willing to do. I do believe a certain amount of “proof” is important but with video etc becoming so prevalent – I think we are losing as much as we are gaining at times. Dan’s remark of establishing your reputation is valid but the problem is in the “how” to do that in today’s world. Stan, Slim, Pat, Dennis etc have certainly done that in a public setting but the way they have done so isn’t always possible for all. Trying to match or beat those feats of strength is natural which is why so many desire to know for sure what the very best and most famous among us have accomplished. Anyway – that’s my ramble for the day – time to go workout with my grandson.

[Mike Corlett]

The short answer is Yep - it certainly has.



When I talk to "regular people", people who are retired, people in business, my son's friends in MMA/powerlifting/Olympic lifting, people from church, the person who is most interesting to them, the story that they are most likely going to remember, is Chris Rice's.

I describe his height, weight, age, former occupation, then describe what he can bend, then say where he is on the most contested/calibrated/standardized event's official list in the sport (the Two Hand Pinch on the Euro Device). The Punchline to "how does he do it" is: He has been an avid Rock Climber for over 20 years. People remember that. Years later I get a comment like "How is that older rock climber guy doing? Have you seen him lately?" I think people are impressed by someone who leads a full life.

Chris, people will be chasing you for decades. Some of us will never catch you, and some will die trying. No one, including time, has passed you. Not yet.