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  • Red Nail: Rule Change?!

    IronMind has been asked to consider tightening the rules for certifying on the Red Nail 1) to eliminate the way guys effectively extend the length of the nail with their pads and also 2) to rein in the crushing style used to start the bend.

    Anyone have any thoughts on this, please?

  • #2
    Can you clarify what you mean in #1 and #2? What new rules can be applied to change the way people apply the wraps or the style they use to bend the nail?
    www.steelbenders.org

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by Randall Strossen View Post
      IronMind has been asked to consider tightening the rules for certifying on the Red Nail 1) to eliminate the way guys effectively extend the length of the nail with their pads and also 2) to rein in the crushing style used to start the bend.

      Anyone have any thoughts on this, please?
      I like it Randy, very cool idea. I think the pads or wraps should have to touch each other on short bars. If the pads touch it reduces the length of the bar to what it is thus limiting mechanical advantage (as you mentioned) and it also prevents the pushing and folding of the nail (as opposed to the wrist strength necessary to bend it using the strength of wrist supintation, flexion and deviation movements that encompass what nail bending as a feat of strength represents). I am for it. There are many people I have seen bending nails with the push and fold method that couldn't do anything with a 60D spike had you asked them to use the form I have written in this paragraph. My .02

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by Kevin McFadden View Post
        Can you clarify what you mean in #1 and #2? What new rules can be applied to change the way people apply the wraps or the style they use to bend the nail?
        Kevin -

        Dave L's post above captures the essence of the idea: if the pads and the first fingers had to be in contact at the start of the bend, it would eliminate the crushing style, or what I call, "practicing for crucifixion."
        Last edited by Randall Strossen; 02-23-2011, 07:56 AM. Reason: typo

        Comment


        • #5
          Randall,

          I figured that's what you were getting at. Even though I don't bend in the double overhand style, I don't think the rules should be changed. The biggest problem that I would have with the change is that people that certed under the new rules would be placed on the same list as people that certed under the old rules. I also think the change is not necessary. If it were that easy to just "fold" the bar, then a lot more people would be certifying.
          www.steelbenders.org

          Comment


          • #6
            I must be horrible with the IM pads, because there is no way I get extra leverage on them.

            Comment


            • #7
              Randall -

              I agree with Dave L. I'm for it 100%.

              Seth

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Bob Lipinski View Post
                I must be horrible with the IM pads, because there is no way I get extra leverage on them.
                +1. I'm in the same boat Bob. The pads don't allow themselves to be used effectively as "levers" as suede and leather can be.

                I also think if there's going to be a step change in the cert process it should be a separate list.

                One way around this is to just list the style used for the cert on the list. Anyone who's on there would easily know the differences between the styles.

                Comment


                • #9
                  List

                  On the list, this is analogous to what we have lived with on the CoC grippers - most guys focus on the when the credit card rule was added, but each of the rules was added over a period of time.

                  I think the analogy continues in that not everyone prior to this point would have used this other bending style - just as not everyone deep set the grippers prior to the credit card rule.

                  Still, since this other style is becoming increasingly common, if we were to make a change (add a new rule), I'd say that it should be sooner rather than later or we'll increase the chances of mixing apples and oranges.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Interesting, I myself have never mastered the Iron mind pads to gain any leverage on a bar. The pads themselfs offer far less of an advantage and far less comfort that other types of wraps. I would venture to say the using Ironmind wraps in any style on a red nail is no easy feat and requires a ton of hard work and dedication, tough fingers.
                    I would like to hear what PEOPLE WHO ARE ALREADY ON THE RED NAIL ROSTER think about a rule change.
                    Rule changes on a historical list such as this, in my opinion, compromises the integrity of the list and those on it. Have the rules of the Dennie stones or Inver stone ever changed ?
                    Also, instead of a rule change, perhaps a thicker Ironmind bar, a 3/8 Ironmind nail. See who really is the cream of the crop.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Hey Casey - The reason you don't gain any leverage with ironmind pads is because you don't actually grip the pads and hold them in place during a bend. This is why you wrap them up and then put rubber bands on to keep them secure. By doing that you miss out on a HUGE part of what it takes to bend steel. The rubber band wrap/push and fold techniques that you and many other guys use may get steel bent but it's not the same as good old fashioned wrist torque. Whether I am on the red nail roster or not, I don't think too may guys can bend Grade 5 Bolts with the pads touching and hands touching at the start of a bend. Think about it.

                      Can you bend a Grade 5 Bolt like this?
                      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hapYIP13MwI

                      If you can, kick a**, I'd like to see the video. Good luck with your wrist training. Save the rubber bands for little children and green plastic army men.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Casey Emery View Post
                        Interesting, I myself have never mastered the Iron mind pads to gain any leverage on a bar. The pads themselfs offer far less of an advantage and far less comfort that other types of wraps. I would venture to say the using Ironmind wraps in any style on a red nail is no easy feat and requires a ton of hard work and dedication, tough fingers.
                        When we (at IronMind) were first wrestling with this bending-style question and the possibility of managing it as described above, I think it was Steve McGranahan who first said to me something like, "Just require IM bending pads and that will solve most of the problem," so he'd be really happy to read what you just posted.

                        Yes, in a perfect world, everything would stay constant, but in the real world, things, including rules, evolve. The situation here is the same as with the grippers - the reason for adopting the rule change would be to preserve the tradition if there is the feeling that recent changes in technique might compromise the spirit of this feat of strength.

                        Incidentally, not sure whether you followed the Dinnie Stone thread, but talking about how it's been lifted over time, you'd find this very interesting.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Good bend Dave ! I don't know if I can do that or not, I will have to give that a go and see what happens. As far as the rubber bands go, maybe you can wrap up a red nail with some Ironmind pads with rubber bands and show how easy it is.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Dave,

                            Why are you assuming that few can bend grade 5 bolts with the pads touching? There are more than a few bending bigger steel than that using Ironmind pads and no rubber bands.
                            www.steelbenders.org

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Some thoughts:

                              RE: IronMind has been asked to consider tightening the rules for certifying on the Red Nail

                              - Who asked you to consider this? A certified Red Nail Bender? A Historian?

                              RE: 1) to eliminate the way guys effectively extend the length of the nail with their pads and also

                              - I don't think IM Pads do this nearly to the extent that leather wraps and IMP/Towel combinations do. I would ask for caution in this however. Many of the edges of Red Nails are very sharp and I would hate for someone to get sliced open due to a wrap sliding around during a bend. With the disallowing of chalk between the bar and the IMPad, movement can happen very easily.

                              RE: 2) to rein in the crushing style used to start the bend.

                              - Would this be to put the emphasis more on wrist / forearm / grip strength? If so, at what point would the transition to the crush-down phase be permitted in order to move through the sweep and into the 2" range? The reason I ask is eventually the Bend becomes an exercise in upper body strength, regardless of starting technique. If the objective is to make the Red Nail cert a wrist / forearm / grip test of strength, then it may be wise to use only Reverse Technique and to adapt the 40 degrees in 30 seconds rules. However, even Reverse Technique involves upper body strength, just not to such a high degree.

                              - Would this change be applied just to the Double Overhand starting position? With the right training, Double Underhand involves very similar upper body recruitment. But like I said, even success with the Reverse Technique is dependent on Upper Body Strength.

                              - Thanks for taking the feedback of past Red Nail benders into consideration for this.

                              RE: further discussion on the proposed change

                              - I am highly interested in seeing how this pans out for two reasons. First, I work with many benders to develop their skills either indirectly through my products or directly through coaching and training programs. Second, if changes in the programs I use need to be made, it could be a large amount of work. Randall, I'd like to offer help in gathering feedback, or to help out in any way I can.

                              Jedd

                              Comment


                              • #16
                                Casey and Kevin,

                                Please don't bother with this line of conversation.

                                Let's focus on the matter at hand. Dr. Strossen is looking for feedback on an important decision.

                                Jedd

                                Comment


                                • #17
                                  Originally posted by Casey Emery View Post
                                  Good bend Dave ! I don't know if I can do that or not, I will have to give that a go and see what happens. As far as the rubber bands go, maybe you can wrap up a red nail with some Ironmind pads with rubber bands and show how easy it is.
                                  There's no chance I will ever wrap up a nail then do the push and fold technique. I can tell you that I have tried to bend a 5/16 cold rold steel spike the same size as the red nail with the form I use and cannot bend it. No excuses, my wrists just not strong enough to do it yet. Thanx for the shout man.

                                  @ Kevin - I see more videos of guys wrapping up with rubber bands than not. Don't you? It's that simple. Not assuming at all. Actually, I am going off what I see. Seriously, just take a look around at steel bending videos and I am sure we can come to an agreement on that one.

                                  @ Jedd - Kevin and Casey have the ability and power to make up their own minds on what they want to respond to and how to respond. There's certainly no need to tell them what to do right?

                                  Comment


                                  • #18
                                    Like I said, Dave, my only interest in this thread is seeing the decision that is made regarding the wraps.

                                    Jedd

                                    Comment


                                    • #19
                                      Originally posted by Jedd Johnson View Post
                                      Some thoughts:

                                      RE: IronMind has been asked to consider tightening the rules for certifying on the Red Nail

                                      - Who asked you to consider this? A certified Red Nail Bender? A Historian?

                                      RE: 1) to eliminate the way guys effectively extend the length of the nail with their pads and also

                                      - I don't think IM Pads do this nearly to the extent that leather wraps and IMP/Towel combinations do. I would ask for caution in this however. Many of the edges of Red Nails are very sharp and I would hate for someone to get sliced open due to a wrap sliding around during a bend. With the disallowing of chalk between the bar and the IMPad, movement can happen very easily.

                                      RE: 2) to rein in the crushing style used to start the bend.

                                      - Would this be to put the emphasis more on wrist / forearm / grip strength? If so, at what point would the transition to the crush-down phase be permitted in order to move through the sweep and into the 2" range? The reason I ask is eventually the Bend becomes an exercise in upper body strength, regardless of starting technique. If the objective is to make the Red Nail cert a wrist / forearm / grip test of strength, then it may be wise to use only Reverse Technique and to adapt the 40 degrees in 30 seconds rules. However, even Reverse Technique involves upper body strength, just not to such a high degree.

                                      - Would this change be applied just to the Double Overhand starting position? With the right training, Double Underhand involves very similar upper body recruitment. But like I said, even success with the Reverse Technique is dependent on Upper Body Strength.

                                      - Thanks for taking the feedback of past Red Nail benders into consideration for this.

                                      RE: further discussion on the proposed change

                                      - I am highly interested in seeing how this pans out for two reasons. First, I work with many benders to develop their skills either indirectly through my products or directly through coaching and training programs. Second, if changes in the programs I use need to be made, it could be a large amount of work. Randall, I'd like to offer help in gathering feedback, or to help out in any way I can.

                                      Jedd
                                      I agree with everything said in this post.
                                      www.steelbenders.org

                                      Comment


                                      • #20
                                        Originally posted by Casey Emery View Post
                                        Rule changes on a historical list such as this, in my opinion, compromises the integrity of the list and those on it.
                                        Casey said it all here.
                                        I certed on the red nail back in Jan 08 and will ask to have my name removed from the list if any significant change is made.

                                        I bend in all styles with all wraps. I've used everything between triple wraps down to no wraps. And I can tell you that the "crucification" style can still be effectively used with wraps touching.
                                        In fact according to physics it should be easier with wraps touching. At least if your talking about sheer force required to bend the nail. Now agreed mechanically it is probably easier for the body to bend with wraps on the ends. But I have plans to see if I can develop my "crucification" style with wraps touching to see if it can surpass my "crucification" style with wraps on the ends. I'f I can get the technique right for it and I can align the body to mechanically do it, it should actually make it easier.
                                        If you can believe that.

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