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CoC Silver Bullet World Record

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  • #2
    I do not know if you have been informed of what is going on with the Silver Bullet. I'm posting a link over to the gripboard with information that you should look into concerning the world record for this matter.

    http://www.gripboard.com/index.php?showtopic=44855

    Comment


    • #3
      With all respect Randall, could you remove this "silver bullet record with COC trainer gripper" fron Ironmind´s website page?

      Thanks,

      Juha Harju

      Comment


      • #4
        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WQ649fz9KOo

        If you watch the whole footage, you'll notice something interesting when it comes to Dmitriy Suhovarov and the gripper he is using. I cannot explain what is going on but there is a jumpcut in the video, when the person uses the coc gripper, the spring is noticeably different in size. The way the bullet was about shoot out but remains doesn't seem possible considering the Silver Bullet item looks tilted but he grippers slightly harder. It seem strange that everyone in the video is straining to achieve this feat (I would too considering that I'm weak with the Silver Bullet), there is no strain/struggle/effort/heavy breathing/etc. I have never seen something like this.

        I'm reposting what was shared about the silver bullet concerning the matter of the people who were behind this event.


        Many armlifting fans were surprised to learn from the IronWorld website about a new absolute world "record" in the discipline of Silver Bullet by Dmitry Suhovarov, who was earlier deprived of the status of WAA representative in St. Petersburg for a number of unworthy deeds. The video of this "feat of strength" was also published in the internet. What you can see and hear on the video bears little resemblance to the competition, but nevertheless the organizers of this event somehow managed to convince the President of IRONMIND Mr. Randall Strossen in the reality of the situation and register a "record", despite the fact that all possible rules have been violated. In addition, when you increase a video frame, you can clearly see that the hand gripper in the hands of Dmitry is completely different from the hand gripper in the hands of other sportsmen (in the hands of the other athletes we see a hand gripper with a heavier thicker spring). Another point, Dmitry holds the lighter gripper without apparent strain. And also the athletes who were at this event, all in one voice say that the "record" attempt was done after they already left the competition.
        World Armlifting Association has nothing to do with this competition. Also WAA does not interfere in the affairs of other communities as a principle. Nevertheless, there must be boarders to everything.
        Besides, during the discussion of the video by the leading armlifters, other things about the deeds of this "athlete and the organizer" Dmitry Sukhovarov came to light. Firstly, falsification of results and conditions of the so-called championship of Europe by APL. Secondly, the disappearance of sound equipment owned by Alex Fitness club in St. Petersburg, provided by the club for the World Championship competition in May 2015. Dmirty Sukhovarov was the organizer of this event. Thirdly, Dmitry has got master's identities of several athletes, and he was supposed to either give them to sportsmen or return to WAA. This was not done and the identities had to be reissued, etc.
        Based on the above, I offer the following:
        1. To express distrust regarding the registration of this silver bullet record by Dmitry Sukhovarov and consider it a fake.
        2. To suggest that the administration of the Alex Fitness club to report to the police about the missing equipment.
        3. To spread this petition to all communities of fans of the grip strength and to ask all grip fans who agree with the above facts to sign this petition regardless of affiliation to different organizations.
        Additionally I hereby inform you that Dmitry Sukhovarov and Roman Penkovsky (as his accomplice in the falsification of the record) shall be banned for a lifetime and shall have no right to participate in any activities under the auspices of the World Armlifting Association for the disrespect and cheating of athletes and armlifting fans around the world.
        Acting President of the World Armlifting Association, a judge of the international category Nickolay Vitkevich

        Comment


        • #5
          John, Juha -

          Sorry, but I've forgotten how to do multi-quote replies—wanted to acknowledge your posts, say that I appreciate your concerns, and would like to point out that at least some of this criticism is being raised for political reasons that have not one iota bearing directly on the sport, or this performance, itself.

          Respect for the authenticity of athletic performances is vital to all of us who take them seriously, but I would be the first to say that for all IronMind goes through to govern and vet what we recognize as meritorious performances, there will always be an element of trust—or in some cases, mistrust.

          Anyway, there is a lot of good stuff going on in the grip world and the growth of armlifting is another example:

          http://www.ironmind.com
          http://www.ironmind.com/news/APL-Expands-Armlifting/

          Comment


          • #6
            Randall -

            Will the record stand? Is this being further investigated?

            Comment


            • #7
              Smoking gun provided. (via good eyes of Alexey Tyukalov)

              "The CoC Silver Bullet is inserted by the competitor no deeper than up to the top edge of the clear band, so that the script Captains of Crush® is legible, and so that all four fingers are in contact with the CoC gripper handle (dropping the pinky completely off the end of the gripper handle is expressly prohibited)."



              The most difficult and most productive part of grip training...the time between workouts. -me

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Paul D Mouser View Post
                Randall -

                Will the record stand? Is this being further investigated?
                Yes—it will stand. And yes, IronMind has reviewed the key details several times and our decision remains. Incidentally, I expected there to be a split decision on this when I took the most recent poll of the review committee (about two hours ago), but I was wrong: there was unanimous support for the initial decision.

                Why?

                Notice that the longer this is being batted around, the more hypothetical violations emerge and that things that had formerly not raised eyebrows are now presented as sinister evidence of grievous misdeeds. There is also a serious credibility problem with some of the most vocal critics of this attempt.

                If you’ve been around grip stuff for a while, you will see a parallel here with when the deep set was introduced as a way to certify on Captains of Crush grippers even if one was not truly strong enough to legitimately close the Captains of Crush No. 3 gripper (or beyond).

                And, on the Rolling Thunder, some people tried to boost their maximum lift by using a jammed or otherwise improperly rotating implement.

                In both cases, IronMind moved to close the potential gap in the rules/procedures so that such practices, whether real or imagined, could not take place.

                Much of what is being debated here springs from this being an extra attempt, so the logical way to forestall future occurrences of this sort of situation is to tighten up and formally define what governs extra attempts as this will protect the athlete, the referee, IronMind and the sport as whole from real or imagined faked performances.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Nathaniel Brous View Post
                  Smoking gun provided. (via good eyes of Alexey Tyukalov)

                  "The CoC Silver Bullet is inserted by the competitor no deeper than up to the top edge of the clear band, so that the script Captains of Crush® is legible, and so that all four fingers are in contact with the CoC gripper handle (dropping the pinky completely off the end of the gripper handle is expressly prohibited)."


                  Nathaniel -
                  I would say leaking squirt gun is more like it, although I appreciate your concern and can understand your confusion.

                  Please read the rule more carefully, consider that you were not there and that referee was: I would therefore respectfully request that you consider taking any judgement you’ve made based on a photo with a grain of salt.

                  By the way, you did know that Alexey is the star of Denis’s ads and has never come even vaguely close to replicating his world record on the Rolling Thunder, right?

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    The video I watched, and the stills, are pretty clear. That bullet is against his hand. But, like Randall said, I wasn't there. Even if the ref was legit in his witness abilities...he could not see the placement of the bullet.

                    Oh well... if that guy feels better now, I'm happy for him.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      The very first, the inaugural Silver Bullet Record, at the LA Fit Expo in January, 2012...was a bad record. Bad judging. Here is the photographic evidence:

                      http://www.ironmind.com/news/Mark-Fe...ing-Challenge/

                      Wow, that's quite a link, hope it works. The hand in front of the competitor, Mark Felix, is mine. I was the judge. My hand is "calling" the lift over. Notice at the exact time my hand went up, he dropped the bullet. My reflexes, any person's reflexes, are not that fast. I was staring at Felix's hand, and it was so fleshy and massive, the bullet appeared to be swallowed by his hand. Notice his pinky was not on the gripper handle. At the time, Randy did not believe me that something was amiss. Then he looked at the photo, and came up with additional rules. It was the first time the event was contested, and the rules were not as specific as they are now. And quite frankly, Felix's hands made it really hard to figure out what was happening.

                      But just working "one contest", you learn what to watch for. Heck, I remember telling half the guys during their hold to bring their hands parallel to the floor. They all complied with a very light warning. If they hadn't, I would have DQ'd them. Recently, after a competition was over, I suggested that the hand not be tilted, and was met with hostile heated profane language by the judge. Those type of volunteer positions are utterly thankless, and competitors can be difficult. Hopefully everyone learns by their experiences and improvements are made.

                      So I am admitting that for that one competitor, for that first contest, the judging was bad, and it was me. Yet, under those circumstances, I don't feel embarrassed about it at all. Good stuff came out of the process.

                      This contest? Hmmm. The issue to me is how much faith do you put in people running the contest, the judges, their integrity, etc. And I don't have a clue what that is in this situation.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        8. Time stops when the Silver Bullet drops from the handles or when the referee observes any opening of the gripper handle for any reason whatsoever.

                        IMHO, according to the video footage presented, with that grip and with that gripper the time for that silver bullet hold is about 51 seconds. The referee didn't notice any opening of the gripper handle when the silver bullet slid lower, oh well.


                        That kind of opening of the gripper handle without completely dropping the bullet is only possible when there is three contact points with the bullet, 2 gripper handles and palm. Without palm contact the bullet would have dropped down to the ground. What happens in one minute mark in the video is even more telling. But the referee didn't observe any opening of the gripper handle, oh well.


                        IMO palm contact, even when not specifically prohibited, is against the spirit of the feat. Then again so is everything else with that performance. JMO

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Randall Strossen View Post

                          Nathaniel -
                          I would say leaking squirt gun is more like it, although I appreciate your concern and can understand your confusion.

                          Please read the rule more carefully, consider that you were not there and that referee was: I would therefore respectfully request that you consider taking any judgement you’ve made based on a photo with a grain of salt.

                          By the way, you did know that Alexey is the star of Denis’s ads and has never come even vaguely close to replicating his world record on the Rolling Thunder, right?

                          Well...I read you loud and clear. The record will stand. However...what part of the rule do I need to read more carefully? The set was too deep. Fact. You don't want me to take the photo with a grain of salt...you want me to pretend it doesn't exist (like this "committee" has decided). Side by side...it's pretty darn clear. In order to gain an angle where the band incorrectly appears too high...you would have to be shooting downwards...which this wasn't. As to Alexey...I don't know who he is...however he was the first to point out the deep set, therefore I credited him accordingly.

                          It's your company and allowing a illegal attempt stand as the I.M. "world record" is your choice. At best, I liken it to a blown call (without replay) in a sport. However, you are choosing to ignore the replay at hand. I have no dog in this fight. Without the video "evidence", I would have accepted this as another demonstration of Russian Strength. There are a great many of crazy strong Russian gripsters out there, however, this "attempt" is not an example of one. On the off chance someone hasn't hasn't seen the "deep set" of the silver bullet...

                          Please...I would love for just one person...ONE to look at the photo below and publicly state that it's a legal IM SB set. Please...double dare yah.





                          The most difficult and most productive part of grip training...the time between workouts. -me

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Mike Corlett View Post
                            The very first, the inaugural Silver Bullet Record, at the LA Fit Expo in January, 2012...was a bad record. Bad judging. Here is the photographic evidence:

                            http://www.ironmind.com/news/Mark-Fe...ing-Challenge/

                            Wow, that's quite a link, hope it works. The hand in front of the competitor, Mark Felix, is mine. I was the judge. My hand is "calling" the lift over. Notice at the exact time my hand went up, he dropped the bullet. My reflexes, any person's reflexes, are not that fast. I was staring at Felix's hand, and it was so fleshy and massive, the bullet appeared to be swallowed by his hand. Notice his pinky was not on the gripper handle. At the time, Randy did not believe me that something was amiss. Then he looked at the photo, and came up with additional rules. It was the first time the event was contested, and the rules were not as specific as they are now. And quite frankly, Felix's hands made it really hard to figure out what was happening.

                            But just working "one contest", you learn what to watch for. Heck, I remember telling half the guys during their hold to bring their hands parallel to the floor. They all complied with a very light warning. If they hadn't, I would have DQ'd them. Recently, after a competition was over, I suggested that the hand not be tilted, and was met with hostile heated profane language by the judge. Those type of volunteer positions are utterly thankless, and competitors can be difficult. Hopefully everyone learns by their experiences and improvements are made.

                            So I am admitting that for that one competitor, for that first contest, the judging was bad, and it was me. Yet, under those circumstances, I don't feel embarrassed about it at all. Good stuff came out of the process.

                            This contest? Hmmm. The issue to me is how much faith do you put in people running the contest, the judges, their integrity, etc. And I don't have a clue what that is in this situation.
                            Mike -

                            My recollection is that the referee's job has always been to call time if the handles open or the bullet drops (but I could well be mistaken on the first part since I'm not sure any of us anticipated that possibility) and after that inaugural competition we learned that it was vital to watch both the pinky and the position of the handles—I'll have more to say on that in a minute.

                            That tilting thing became a source of heated comment when the prior world record was set, but I think anyone who was there and saw Kody Burns' performance in person would have no doubt that it was a good lift.

                            The whole thing about briefing the referee on the rules right before the event and telling him not to be afraid to red light something cannot be overemphasized—everybody thinks they know the rules and everybody thinks they make good calls, but even if that were true, a quick refresher is beneficial for all.

                            Yes, absolutely, about the the role of faith and integrity.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Nathaniel Brous View Post


                              Well...I read you loud and clear. The record will stand. However...what part of the rule do I need to read more carefully? The set was too deep. Fact. You don't want me to take the photo with a grain of salt...you want me to pretend it doesn't exist (like this "committee" has decided). Side by side...it's pretty darn clear. In order to gain an angle where the band incorrectly appears too high...you would have to be shooting downwards...which this wasn't. As to Alexey...I don't know who he is...however he was the first to point out the deep set, therefore I credited him accordingly.

                              It's your company and allowing a illegal attempt stand as the I.M. "world record" is your choice. At best, I liken it to a blown call (without replay) in a sport. However, you are choosing to ignore the replay at hand. I have no dog in this fight. Without the video "evidence", I would have accepted this as another demonstration of Russian Strength. There are a great many of crazy strong Russian gripsters out there, however, this "attempt" is not an example of one. On the off chance someone hasn't hasn't seen the "deep set" of the silver bullet...

                              Please...I would love for just one person...ONE to look at the photo below and publicly state that it's a legal IM SB set. Please...double dare yah.




                              Nathaniel -

                              I think I might be able to shed some light on this legal/illegal position thing and Mike Corlett's post, above, creates the perfect place to start.

                              In a nutshell, at least after the first contest, we learned that we had to guard against contact between the pinky and the CoC Silver Bullet so that is the reason for the rule that you refer to, but the nuance that might not be obvious to all is that the pinky is not required to be completely on the handle—although it must maintain contact. Rather, the critical thing is that the pinky does not make contact with the CoC Silver Bullet. Thus, the picture on the right is obviously legal, but just as true, the one on the left is not obviously illegal.

                              I can circle back to this if anyone would like me to, but first, here's a video that you might also enjoy watching and then commenting on:

                              https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W0W23_lteck

                              Comment


                              • #16
                                Originally posted by Randall Strossen View Post

                                Nathaniel -

                                I think I might be able to shed some light on this legal/illegal position thing and Mike Corlett's post, above, creates the perfect place to start.

                                In a nutshell, at least after the first contest, we learned that we had to guard against contact between the pinky and the CoC Silver Bullet so that is the reason for the rule that you refer to, but the nuance that might not be obvious to all is that the pinky is not required to be completely on the handle—although it must maintain contact. Rather, the critical thing is that the pinky does not make contact with the CoC Silver Bullet. Thus, the picture on the right is obviously legal, but just as true, the one on the left is not obviously illegal.

                                I can circle back to this if anyone would like me to, but first, here's a video that you might also enjoy watching and then commenting on:

                                https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W0W23_lteck

                                Ummmmm...Randall, I'm completely not referring to anything that has anything to do with the pinky. I am referring to the following..."The CoC Silver Bullet is inserted by the competitor no deeper than up to the top edge of the clear band, so that the script Captains of Crush® is legible"

                                The clear band is pretty much entirely between the gripper handles. Even if you don't agree on the "entirely" part...I'm not sure how anyone could believe that the clear band isn't "clearly" above the ends of the handles. As you know, this is a violation of the rules that I.M set up. The higher the placement of the silver bullet...the less close the gripper must be...the easier the feat.

                                So....do you agree that the silver bullet is too highly (illegally) set inside the gripper?

                                Again. I'm looking for ONE person to look at the photograph and publicly state that the silver bullet is legally placed in between the handles of that gripper. Who will be first?

                                The most difficult and most productive part of grip training...the time between workouts. -me

                                Comment


                                • #17
                                  Nathaniel -

                                  Very sorry, but that's not something we're going to, umm, sweat bullets over—we're not asking competitors or referees to do the placement with brain surgery precision but rather use the band as a marker to show the bullet was not lodged too deeply in the gripper. Given that intent and spirit, do you maybe have a suggestion for revised wording?

                                  The pinky thing, however, is crucial—that's one of the key points a referee needs to be focussed on.

                                  By the way, I think you said earlier that you didn't know who Alexey was, so this is a real long shot, but without someone whispering the answer in your ear, do you know whose voice that is, coaching on the video link I posted?

                                  Comment


                                  • #18
                                    Paging Jose Cabrera: I was told that you had some derogatory things to say about IronMind and me over on the GripBoard that have since been taken down, so I'd like to invite you to post your comments here because if IronMind or I made a mistake, I'd like a chance to apologize and correct it, and if you made a mistake in what you said, I'd also like a chance to correct it.

                                    Comment


                                    • #19
                                      Originally posted by Randall Strossen View Post
                                      Nathaniel -

                                      Very sorry, but that's not something we're going to, umm, sweat bullets over—we're not asking competitors or referees to do the placement with brain surgery precision but rather use the band as a marker to show the bullet was not lodged too deeply in the gripper. Given that intent and spirit, do you maybe have a suggestion for revised wording?

                                      The pinky thing, however, is crucial—that's one of the key points a referee needs to be focussed on.

                                      By the way, I think you said earlier that you didn't know who Alexey was, so this is a real long shot, but without someone whispering the answer in your ear, do you know whose voice that is, coaching on the video link I posted?

                                      I thought the wording was fine...just the enforcement of the rule. You created a credit card set because of the decline of what you called an adequate set. If you don't enforce the SB set...at what point do you call...too deep?

                                      As far as your video goes...I was under the impression that you and I have a no-click agreement with each other's videos.
                                      The most difficult and most productive part of grip training...the time between workouts. -me

                                      Comment


                                      • #20
                                        Originally posted by Randall Strossen View Post
                                        By the way, you did know that Alexey is the star of Denis’s ads and has never come even vaguely close to replicating his world record on the Rolling Thunder, right?
                                        For last 5 years I was competing only using Ironmind equipment and I was very surprised by such statements in my address. I expressed my opinion regarding faked Silver Bullet record only, just like many other athletes. It is a pity that you don't see the obvious. As far as my advertisement of other grip tools, that's my own business. The fact that I have participated in grip tournaments in America for a few times, does this make Ironmind my boss, who has the right to order me what competitions I should take part in and what I should do?


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