Dinnie Stones: IHGF Scottish Stones of Strength World Challenge

[Randall Strossen]

http://www.ironmind.com

http://www.ironmind.com/ironmind/opencms/Articles/2013/Jun/IHGF_Scottish_Stones_of_Strength_World_Challenge-Dinnie_Stones_Go_for_a_Walk.html

[Peter Martin]

It ain't over till the fat lady sings

Firstly, I would like to applaud a tremendous feat of strength because it is. Secondly, The lift and walk of the Dinnie Steens is the replication of a feat of strength rather than in any way representative of traditional stone lifting and as this was an attempt to replicate that feat, I would expect the following to have been put in place - 1. Dinnie walked the breadth of the bridge and back requiring an obvious turn.......the bridge should have been used 2. Were the steens weighed before this event? It would be interesting for ALL to known what the current weight of the steens are. 3. Were straps used? 4. And very important.......As far as I am aware, Dinnie was not a user of PED's based on the assumption that they weren't around at the time, so to fully replicate......was there drug testing? And finally, is this an attempt by the IHGF to extend their world domination to stone lifting? Again, this is a tremendous feat of strength but it does stand alone........at least it is none of this lifting for "reps" nonsense created, marketed and believed by the ignorant.

[Bill Crawford]

The lifter did use straps. That to me is not even a legitimate lift of the stones. Did Dinnie use straps. No. Is this what we have come to? Sure the lifter is a strong guy. But really?

Do you guys know who Bill Bankert is? But I forgot, this is 2013 and we can revise history to fit our needs.

Bill

[Peter Martin]

The lifter did use straps. That to me is not even a legitimate lift of the stones. Did Dinnie use straps. No. Is this what we have come to? Sure the lifter is a strong guy. But really?

Do you guys know who Bill Bankert is? But I forgot, this is 2013 and we can revise history to fit our needs.

Bill

Bill, I still think it is a tremendous feat of strength but it in no way, regardless how some try to perceive it, is it a bettering of the Dinnies feat of strength. And by the way, the ghost of Bangert still lives.......quite obvious in the accepted practice by some but not all to change practice and culture to make things fit. I can't wait to see it all on TV..........I guess that there is more chance of this thread turning into a mire rather than my three simple questions beings answered.Bridge?, Weight? Drugs?...........Oh, and yes.....I thought I had derailed this event? ............I knew otherwise.

[Randall Strossen]

The lifter did use straps. That to me is not even a legitimate lift of the stones. Did Dinnie use straps. No. Is this what we have come to? Sure the lifter is a strong guy. But really?

Do you guys know who Bill Bankert is? But I forgot, this is 2013 and we can revise history to fit our needs.

Bill

Bill -

I, too, cringed when I saw the lifting straps and really wish they had not been used, but you know what a hornet's nest that one is.

Is Bill Bankert the guy who "lifted" and "carried" the Dinnie Stones by using a shoulder harness?

[Travis Willingham]

[Bill Crawford]

No doubt the young man who carried the Dinnies with the straps is strong and won the competition. Great for him. He did not however equal Dinnie's feat. History may have been made for a different reason but not for equaling Donald Dinnie in any way.

The Dinnies should be lifted bare handed. No straps. That is how Dinnie would have lifted them. I am not interested in regulations, PED testing or whatever. But just do the basics. Bare hand lift the stones.

Before Jack Shanks showed everyone that the Dinnies could be lifted in the early 70's there were some who had lifted them with straps. But those lifts were not recognized.

Bill Bankert built a contraption in which he placed the Dinnies on a wooden pallet and had shoulder harnesses attached to the pallet. He then held the rings but again, the stones were lifted with the pallet and a leather harness. There is a Dinnie website (or there used to be, I need to check) with a picture on the site just to show the contraption with Bankert in with the stones. Being fair, lifting the stones with straps is in a different league than the contraption that Bankert made.

Apples and oranges. Anyone who has lifted the Dinnies will tell you, the grip is the great limiting factor. Also, to lift them side to side, which I have, the large stone gets caught on your leg on the way up. That pulls it from your hand. With straps you can overcome that impediment.

To me this is not controversial, it is black and white.

Bill

[Peter Martin]

A Game of Stones

Bill -

I, too, cringed when I saw the lifting straps and really wish they had not been used, but you know what a hornet's nest that one is.

Is Bill Bankert the guy who "lifted" and "carried" the Dinnie Stones by using a shoulder harness?

Randall, There is no hornets nest. It is quite clearly a divide between those that know and those that think they know but really don't have a clue. With all due respect to the IHGF (in its current guise) perhaps they should be advised that Highland Games culture and Traditional stone lifting culture are two COMPLETELY different entities. Having knowledge of or being a great competitor at the heavy events does not mean that you are then blessed with a thorough knowledge and understanding of stone lifting culture, it comes at a price and I am unaware of anything that messrs Brebner and Vierra, other than having lifted the odd stone on the A93 corridor, have actually contributed to the furtherment of Scottish stone lifting. Stone lifting is not a mix of both the Inver and Dinnie Steens, some but not all, think that all you do is visit Scotland, lift these stones and then go home as instant experts......it is a Dinniecentric view and completely wrong. There is a far bigger cultural picture and the IHGF will, and believe me in this, they will make a mockery of it. They will no doubt be ably supported by your good self as there is an Ironmind Ad in the photo so I find it quite surprising that you would sponsor or support such an event and be completely ignorant in what is actually going to take place. Ironmind News states that it is FAST, ACCURATE AND OBJECTIVE...........not in this one it isn't......well off mark and in any case, I count seven o/h Inver lifts or does it really matter, lets take any number. On stone lifting, there is more chance of HBO signing up this crew to write a fantasy called A Game of Stones - Two MILO articles and this mince certainly proves suitability for purpose. Pure fantasy.

[Peter Martin]

Travis, I'm not surprised that the locals had no knowledge about the harness. I have two local newspaper(Missouri) articles of the time where Bangert waxes lyrically about his strength, first person to walk the stones etc but cleverly fails to mention how he did it exactly. He leaves the firm impression that he walked whilst holding both stones in what is considered the proper manner. He goes on at length about a bet he had with the Lord Mayor of Aberdeen, winning a bottle of whiskey etc etc but completely ignorant that in Scotland we do not have a Lord Mayor on any Mayor for that matter......he have Provosts.....Liars will always be caught out somehow. I will email the articles if you wish.

[Randall Strossen]

Peter: Wrong Again

Randall, There is no hornets nest. It is quite clearly a divide between those that know and those that think they know but really don't have a clue. With all due respect to the IHGF (in its current guise) perhaps they should be advised that Highland Games culture and Traditional stone lifting culture are two COMPLETELY different entities. Having knowledge of or being a great competitor at the heavy events does not mean that you are then blessed with a thorough knowledge and understanding of stone lifting culture, it comes at a price and I am unaware of anything that messrs Brebner and Vierra, other than having lifted the odd stone on the A93 corridor, have actually contributed to the furtherment of Scottish stone lifting. Stone lifting is not a mix of both the Inver and Dinnie Steens, some but not all, think that all you do is visit Scotland, lift these stones and then go home as instant experts......it is a Dinniecentric view and completely wrong. There is a far bigger cultural picture and the IHGF will, and believe me in this, they will make a mockery of it. They will no doubt be ably supported by your good self as there is an Ironmind Ad in the photo so I find it quite surprising that you would sponsor or support such an event and be completely ignorant in what is actually going to take place. Ironmind News states that it is FAST, ACCURATE AND OBJECTIVE...........not in this one it isn't......well off mark and in any case, I count seven o/h Inver lifts or does it really matter, lets take any number. On stone lifting, there is more chance of HBO signing up this crew to write a fantasy called A Game of Stones - Two MILO articles and this mince certainly proves suitability for purpose. Pure fantasy.

Peter -

Truth is, evidently Francis nicely brought an IronMind banner with him to Scotland, and before you mouth off about the IronMind News or MILO again, get your story straight or people will think that instead of having stones on your mind, you have rocks in your head.

[Peter Martin]

Peter -

Truth is, evidently Francis nicely brought an IronMind banner with him to Scotland, and before you mouth off about the IronMind News or MILO again, get your story straight or people will think that instead of having stones on your mind, you have rocks in your head.

Hardly wrong Randall, your news is not accurate so you will just have to live with being wrong on this occasion and now that I have your attention - could you explain how I supposedly derailed a competition that has went ahead.? I would also love to know who the identity of the bogey man that they all feared turning up to put a stop to it and hence the lies on this Forum about the date of the event. I did intend going but you know full well by my email the reasons for wanting to attend which had nothing to do with stone lifting but other matters, perhaps more important. A chance missed I would say. Apologies about the banner comment..

[Thom Van Vleck]

I hope to grow old...not old an bitter

GOOD LORD. I rarely get on these anymore and this is why. I'll just say it, PETER MARTIN, you are a bitter man, not sure how old you are but I hope you aren't too old to be this bitter. I have met Bangert and talked to him. Never once did he claim to me that he duplicate or beat Dinnie. He even said he knew he couldn't lift them that way and had that harness built just so he could. YOU are the one rewriting history when you make claims based on a couple of newspaper articles when you have NEVER MET the man. Also, have you actually talked to Chad Ullom? YOU HAVE NOT. YOU BASE YOUR INFORMATION ON WHAT YOU THINK YOU KNOW AND ASSUME NONE OF THE REST OF US KNOW ANYTHING AT ALL. I can tell you Chad Ullom has said repeatedly he KNOWS he is no match for Donald Dinnie and has the greatest of respect for him. This is just bitterness and I hope you get a handle on it as I know quite a few in the strength world and they are all beginning to see you as a bitter old man who fancies himself an expert when the reality is your are nothing more than an "arm chair quarterback" and if you don't understand want that American reference means it means someone who CAN'T do it but criticizes anyone who tries. I have written a story about an Anvil in my family that has been lifted by 4 generations. The first time I lifted it, it was so easy I did several reps, then I felt bad as I felt like I had disrespected those who came before. But the truth is, I hope my sons lift it twice as many times as I did when their turn comes. This **** of comparing ANYTHING done with these stones today with what was done years ago is as suspect as what Dinnie did with them in the first place. QUESTIONING either and the motives of either is a just as insulting.

Finally, I've known Chad Ullom for nearly 20 years. PED's? You insult my friend bringing that up so you better be clear on who you are talking about as Chad had never used them. He has earned his strength through hard work and sweat....how have you earned yours....oh, that's right, you just talk about it.

I would think it would be an honor to Dinnie to have so many want to duplicate or even beat what he did. Maybe we should just cart those stones to a museum and let's just forget about Dinnie.....would that be better? Not sure why I even bother as you are so close minded you are probably already coming up with a retort with some muddled logic because you are either too stupid, too stubborn or both to have an intelligent conversation. Just keep your paranoid delusions going of how everyone wants to destroy and disrespect the past until no body cares....and believe me, that will happen.

[Peter Martin]

Thom, Obviously your conception of stone lifting history is far different from mine. There are far more lifting stones in Scotland than the Inver Stone and the Dinnies. I have quite a sizeable list and many are still available for lifting. I do a considerable amount of travelling to try and trace these stones and gather as much information as possible about them. Over a long period of time I have built up a great deal of knowledge on these stones, how they were lifted and why they were lifted........there are patterns but no generic throughout Scotland however no-where is there any reference to a stone or stones being lifted for repetitions.......it just never happened so you are going to have to live with that. You question my knowledge of stone lifting culture and history.....well I'm sure you will know far better. I'm glad there is at least one person who thinks that Bill Bangert is some stone lifting hero.....tell Bill Crawford that as I share the exact same view as he does. With regards to Chad, when did I imply that he was a user of PED's? I certainly don't recall it. I have never alluded to lifting a stone and have pointed out I'm too old and only a historian. What I have uncovered is of some interest.......you can gladly come over and take over the research if you so wish but first I would have to ask you, what do you know about Gaelic strength culture and the lifting of these stones - in this country not yours?

[Eric Todd]

GOOD LORD. I rarely get on these anymore and this is why. I'll just say it, PETER MARTIN, you are a bitter man, not sure how old you are but I hope you aren't too old to be this bitter. I have met Bangert and talked to him. Never once did he claim to me that he duplicate or beat Dinnie. He even said he knew he couldn't lift them that way and had that harness built just so he could. YOU are the one rewriting history when you make claims based on a couple of newspaper articles when you have NEVER MET the man. Also, have you actually talked to Chad Ullom? YOU HAVE NOT. YOU BASE YOUR INFORMATION ON WHAT YOU THINK YOU KNOW AND ASSUME NONE OF THE REST OF US KNOW ANYTHING AT ALL. I can tell you Chad Ullom has said repeatedly he KNOWS he is no match for Donald Dinnie and has the greatest of respect for him. This is just bitterness and I hope you get a handle on it as I know quite a few in the strength world and they are all beginning to see you as a bitter old man who fancies himself an expert when the reality is your are nothing more than an "arm chair quarterback" and if you don't understand want that American reference means it means someone who CAN'T do it but criticizes anyone who tries. I have written a story about an Anvil in my family that has been lifted by 4 generations. The first time I lifted it, it was so easy I did several reps, then I felt bad as I felt like I had disrespected those who came before. But the truth is, I hope my sons lift it twice as many times as I did when their turn comes. This **** of comparing ANYTHING done with these stones today with what was done years ago is as suspect as what Dinnie did with them in the first place. QUESTIONING either and the motives of either is a just as insulting.

Finally, I've known Chad Ullom for nearly 20 years. PED's? You insult my friend bringing that up so you better be clear on who you are talking about as Chad had never used them. He has earned his strength through hard work and sweat....how have you earned yours....oh, that's right, you just talk about it.

I would think it would be an honor to Dinnie to have so many want to duplicate or even beat what he did. Maybe we should just cart those stones to a museum and let's just forget about Dinnie.....would that be better? Not sure why I even bother as you are so close minded you are probably already coming up with a retort with some muddled logic because you are either too stupid, too stubborn or both to have an intelligent conversation. Just keep your paranoid delusions going of how everyone wants to destroy and disrespect the past until no body cares....and believe me, that will happen.

Thom, you already got the old part down. Time to get going on the bitter (LOL)

[Thom Van Vleck]

Missed my point entirely

Peter, I'm not surprised you missed my point entirely. I'm not talking about who's smarter or who knows more or whatever. If you want to engage in who knows more history about lifting in general I'll match up with anyone. If I'm talking about pure history of the stones I'm certain I'm no equal to you. I'm not talking about that. I'm talking about how you seem to not take the opportunity to use these events to further the legend of the stones and the history behind them and instead seem to want to attack others and in general just be a jerk about it. You are alienating those who would care most about the history of those stones and you don't even realize it. I would not have come to Scotland and spent several thousands of my tourist dollars TWICE now had it not been for the book on Stones by your father. I would NEVER have even heard of Donald Dinnie nor bought the book by Webster on him and read it cover to cover THREE times now (and countless times picked it up and just to read a few pages). I would NEVER have learned so much about my own Scottish history (my genaology connects me to a dozen different clans) and learned how important this history is as in my opinion there would NEVER have been a United States had it not been for Scotland.....but how you've handled this with vitriol, anger, accusations, and allegations when you HAVEN'T even talked to most involved and when you could USE this to spread the legends of the stones and the history of Donald Dinnie is beyond me.

Stop bullying others with your "knowledge" and your "connections" and embrace them and make it work for you....otherwise.....I would be curious how many others are really behind you because my guess is this has damaged your reputation more than you realize. You may think you have a strong following on this, but I would be interested to see who really shares your thoughts.

[Peter Martin]

Peter, I'm not surprised you missed my point entirely. I'm not talking about who's smarter or who knows more or whatever. If you want to engage in who knows more history about lifting in general I'll match up with anyone. If I'm talking about pure history of the stones I'm certain I'm no equal to you. I'm not talking about that. I'm talking about how you seem to not take the opportunity to use these events to further the legend of the stones and the history behind them and instead seem to want to attack others and in general just be a jerk about it. You are alienating those who would care most about the history of those stones and you don't even realize it. I would not have come to Scotland and spent several thousands of my tourist dollars TWICE now had it not been for the book on Stones by your father. I would NEVER have even heard of Donald Dinnie nor bought the book by Webster on him and read it cover to cover THREE times now (and countless times picked it up and just to read a few pages). I would NEVER have learned so much about my own Scottish history (my genaology connects me to a dozen different clans) and learned how important this history is as in my opinion there would NEVER have been a United States had it not been for Scotland.....but how you've handled this with vitriol, anger, accusations, and allegations when you HAVEN'T even talked to most involved and when you could USE this to spread the legends of the stones and the history of Donald Dinnie is beyond me.

Stop bullying others with your "knowledge" and your "connections" and embrace them and make it work for you....otherwise.....I would be curious how many others are really behind you because my guess is this has damaged your reputation more than you realize. You may think you have a strong following on this, but I would be interested to see who really shares your thoughts.

Thom, All valid points and I am not going to disagree with you...........tell Chad he shoulders the Inver next time....or he will be hearing from me (kidding)

[Francis Brebner]

http://www.ironmind.com

http://www.ironmind.com/ironmind/ope...or_a_Walk.html

TheHistory of lifting the stones is very vague in how Dinnie would have actually carriedthe Stones, wither it be both together or one at a time and if it was a liftstep and drop repeatedly multiple times over the given distance is just notreally known.
Whatis fact and we do know is that thousands upon thousands of strength athletesfrom all back grounds in sports have made the pilgrimage from all over theWorld in the past several decades inattempt to match Dinnies long standing feat but all have failed in attemptingto lift and walk with the stones both together with the use of hand straps letalone bare handed.
Therehas been a few dozen athletes that have been able to dead-lift thestones bare handed from the ground but none are not capable of holding on fornothing more than several seconds before the hands fatigue and openup.


Theonly recorded attempt in walking bare handed with both stones was set onlylast year by England's Mark Haydock in 2012, Mark walked a distanceof three feet without touching the ground, Mark this week in the World Challengemanaged ten feet which was amazing.


Isthis not a sign and a clear indication that if only three men in the last 150years or so out of all the thousands who have tried bare handed or with straps towalk with the stones then this is nothing more than a Myth of Dinnie walkingbare handed without touching the ground a distance of five yards.


Butthat is not to say that Dinnie could not have walked with both stones one at atime or give him the benefit of the doubt that he did a lift step and drop methodto achieve the distance of five yards.

InDinnies own hand writing it is said that he carried both stones the width ofthe bridge a distance of five yards, but Dinnie did not claim to have carriedboth at the same time or to have carried them without touching the ground, this is where Myths are now made when people claim such things when there is no realfacts.


TheIHGF allowed use of hand straps during the IHGF Scottish Stones of StrengthWorld Challenge as the past distances officially recorded by Callum Morrisonand Glen Ross were done with the use of straps, the only way in this day andage that anyone would be able to have any chance attempting to go over fiveyards without touching the ground at any time.
Letus look at every other Stone lifting Legends or any other sporting event aroundthe World, they all have been equaled or surpassed at some point, and now when weare living in a age when there has never been more powerful, stronger andexplosive strength athletes and none can come nowhere near to matching the feat carried out by Dinnie himself.


Ilike many others do not believe that there is no man on this earth that cancarry both stone bare handed five yards bare handed unless they are using handstraps to do so or unless they carry the stones in a lift step and drop methodwhich many believe that this is how Dinnie most likely did bare handed.



On a last note whatevidence really exists that Dinnie walked with the stones bare handed fiveyards across the bridge without touching the ground, if it were true and Dinnie was capable ofthis feat and was much stronger than any man that has been alive been to date, then we looking at a man the likes the World will never ever see again in the Historyor in the future.

[James Grahame]

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[James Grahame]

cant seem to edit my own post

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[Ben Edwards]

4. And very important.......As far as I am aware, Dinnie was not a user of PED's based on the assumption that they weren't around at the time, so to fully replicate......was there drug testing? And finally, is this an attempt by the IHGF to extend their world domination to stone lifting? Again, this is a tremendous feat of strength but it does stand alone........at least it is none of this lifting for "reps" nonsense created, marketed and believed by the ignorant.

The drug issue is one that I will address. I know Chad Ullom and he is a standup guy. As a USAWA competitor, he competes often and is drug tested often. And has never failed a drug test. Because he does not use banned drugs. I only use the term "banned drugs" because someone is probably going to ask if he has ever used caffeine in his life and then call me and him both liars. Silly? Yes. Likely to happen? Yes. Nipped in the bud? I hope so.