Black nail

[Sean Cashman]

Randy any thoughts on developing a "Black" nail?

I know there was talk 4-5 years ago when the Gold nail was developed. Thus far we haven't seen one person cert the Gold. Just seems like having a piece of steel between the Red and Gold would make sense.

Thoughts?

[Randall Strossen]

Sean -

Thanks much for asking and I kind of got ribbed about this the other day because I think there's a widespread feeling that the gap between the Red Nail and the Gold Nail is huge. . . of course, the step from the Captains of Crush No. 3 to the No. 4 is huge and back when the CoC No. 4 was developed, there was nothing between it and the CoC No. 3.

Well, now that you've asked me, how about if weopen this up to any more thoughts you or anyone else has on this, please?

[Sean Cashman]

Sean -

Thanks much for asking and I kind of got ribbed about this the other day because I think there's a widespread feeling that the gap between the Red Nail and the Gold Nail is huge. . . of course, the step from the Captains of Crush No. 3 to the No. 4 is huge and back when the CoC No. 4 was developed, there was nothing between it and the CoC No. 3.

Well, now that you've asked me, how about if weopen this up to any more thoughts you or anyone else has on this, please?

I agree the gap between Red and Gold is huge, and I also liken it to a #3 and #4. So finding a #3.5 equivalent would be so enticing to many benders. I know some have suggested in the past that a 11/32" x 7.5" bar of cold rolled steel would be somewhere in the middle. But I'd love to hear from the more experienced and better steel benders what they think.

For anyone interested here is an old thread with some good info - https://www.ironmind-forum.com/forum...quivalent-nail

[Nathaniel Brous]

I'm back working on the gold...but I'd love to see a black nail. There are a number of benders who simply stopped bending after the red. The black stepping stone could bring them back...and keep upcoming benders bending.
I'm good for the first 100 black nails you put on sale.

Thanks for considering it again Randall...and bringing it back up sean.

[richardcottrell]

I am new to this world of bending, but I would think a black nail would be great... And as a matter of fact, in a long road trip with one bender i joked that someone else could come out with a product that would be the "Missing Nails" Iron-Mind had the bag of nails, then they added the Gold, but what if there were a nail just below the Red and one just over it (Black)? Either way, with the Gold seeming to be so out of reach, maybe the Black would provide a nice step above the Red even if your not on the Road to Gold

[Carl Donati Jr]

Well, now that you've asked me, how about if weopen this up to any more thoughts you or anyone else has on this, please?

Randall - I would absolutely train for this. I think something like the Black Nail would bring a lot of benders out of retirement, and for many like myself, give us something "possible" to chase. Like Nate, I'd quickly scoop up the next 100!

[Ben Edwards]

This is a good idea. Not enough to bring me out of retirement, lol. But I would pay attention to the bending "scene" more if the Black Nail made its way on the scene. And I know IronMind would sell a bunch of them.

[Tom Scibelli]

I haven't bent seriously in a long time, but I would definitely love to give a run at a black nail!

[Tank Andrade]

I am back to bending as well and am in desperate need of this black nail. I am just to red level again and now must turn my sights elsewhwere from Ironmind for quite some time before i am in gold territory. Thanks Randall for the consideration

[Brian McShane]

I would really be interested in the black nail option also! I've just certed on the red but the gold is something that I wouldn't be going after due to its length. Would be very interested in something between red and gold, ideally around the 7 inch mark or close. :-)

[Randall Strossen]

Gentlemen -

Just wanted to thank you and say that I've been reading all your comments—appreciate your input and having been mulling over some options . . .

[Aaron Baumann]

A nail between the Red and Gold would be so cool! I would definitely buy a ton of new black nails and bending pads.

Aaron

[Sean Cashman]

Gentlemen -

Just wanted to thank you and say that I've been reading all your comments—appreciate your input and having been mulling over some options . . .

Great news! Thank you for the consideration Randall. What are the options you are mulling over right now?

[Randall Strossen]

Great news! Thank you for the consideration Randall. What are the options you are mulling over right now?

Sean -

Wish I could say, "Here it is, what do you think?" but we're not there yet . . . still actively pursuing some options though, but it's going to take a little more time before I can say anything definite one way or the other.

Meantime, though, another suggestion that's come up before is starting a reverse-only category for the Red Nail . . . I know that's a little off topic, but what do you (or anyone else who's interested) think about that, please?

[Ben Edwards]

Meantime, though, another suggestion that's come up before is starting a reverse-only category for the Red Nail . . . I know that's a little off topic, but what do you (or anyone else who's interested) think about that, please?

Randall, I think the reverse-only category is a cool idea. The trouble would be in the measuring of the bend during the time limit. If the time limit is going to remain a minute. The most accepted reverse bending "rules" are a bend to 40 degrees in 30 seconds or less. This is not what you (IronMind) have to stick to of course, since it'll be your cert. But getting an accurate measurement of a bend (to 40 degrees at least) and then sliding the wraps back on to finish it DO to 2" or less between the ends of the bar would be a challenge. But I guess that's the point of a cert, right? A challenge.

Maybe the IM reverse rules could be something like "30 seconds to bend it to 40 degrees or more. Then 60 seconds would be allowed for measuring with a protractor. Then another 30 seconds will be allowed for the crushdown to 2" or less."

If you don't have the minimum degree of bend requirement, you'll have guys certifying by barely kinking the Red reverse, then simply finishing it off from basically straight in high DO style.

[Nathaniel Brous]

Randall, I think the reverse-only category is a cool idea. The trouble would be in the measuring of the bend during the time limit. If the time limit is going to remain a minute. The most accepted reverse bending "rules" are a bend to 40 degrees in 30 seconds or less. This is not what you (IronMind) have to stick to of course, since it'll be your cert. But getting an accurate measurement of a bend (to 40 degrees at least) and then sliding the wraps back on to finish it DO to 2" or less between the ends of the bar would be a challenge. But I guess that's the point of a cert, right? A challenge.

Maybe the IM reverse rules could be something like "30 seconds to bend it to 40 degrees or more. Then 60 seconds would be allowed for measuring with a protractor. Then another 30 seconds will be allowed for the crushdown to 2" or less."

If you don't have the minimum degree of bend requirement, you'll have guys certifying by barely kinking the Red reverse, then simply finishing it off from basically straight in high DO style.

Ben. I don't see the point in finishing a reverse bend down to 2", since it won't be done in Reverse style anyway.

Besides...I don't think it's even possible for a person to Reverse a Red to 40 degrees...and fail to finish a bar DO.

Why not just have the ref wait the minute out regardless...then pull the pads and measure?

Most often a reverse is going to be finished in that first 30 seconds...or not at all...but keeping it at a minute will give a small percentage a shot at finishing the bend.

Playing with the pads is silly, messy and not really related to the challenge of bending in the first place. I absolutely agree that the bar must be reversed to 40 degrees...Why not just make that the challenge?

I can only think of a handful of people that might be able to Cert Reverse in this manner at the moment...with no guarantees. I'm still pretty far away from this challenge myself...but would not stop until I manned up and Certed.

[Ben Edwards]

Ben. I don't see the point in finishing a reverse bend down to 2", since it won't be done in Reverse style anyway.
I never saw the point either, Nate. So I totally agree with you.

Besides...I don't think it's even possible for a person to Reverse a Red to 40 degrees...and fail to finish a bar DO.
This is absolutely possible! I know a Red Nail (and beyond) high DO bender who was reversing Reds to 40 degrees (and a bit past) in the 30-second time limit that I spoke of. And then failing to finish them off DO within 5 minutes of his reverse movement. Probably because the reverse just wiped him out. Edit: Another friend confirmed to me that IF he had to do the Red Nail reverse cert within a minute (theoretically going with the minute time limit again) that he has never completed the task. And his best high DO bend is a Grand.

Why not just have the ref wait the minute out regardless...then pull the pads and measure?
Sounds reasonable to me.

Most often a reverse is going to be finished in that first 30 seconds...or not at all...but keeping it at a minute will give a small percentage a shot at finishing the bend.
You are right, of course. I don't think I ever had a reverse bend attempt where I got any movement at all after 30 seconds. And believe me, there was a few months period where I tried a lot.

Playing with the pads is silly, messy and not really related to the challenge of bending in the first place. I absolutely agree that the bar must be reversed to 40 degrees...Why not just make that the challenge?
Agreed, again.

I can only think of a handful of people that might be able to Cert Reverse in this manner at the moment...with no guarantees. I'm still pretty far away from this challenge myself...but would not stop until I manned up and Certed.
I bet you would cert in a very short period of time!

I added my responses in blue colored font within the quotes.

[David Wigren]

A nail inbetween the red and gold would definitely be enough to have me take up steel bending again. A red nail reverse and/or double underhand style would be kind of cool but I'd rather not see it happen. It would water down the significance of the current red nail rooster IMO. But I'd still go for the cert if Ironmind decides to make it a thing.

[Anton Torrella]

I've finally gotten to red nail bending level after years of training and would love the ability to continue training towards a black nail certification once I've joined the red nail roster - please make it so!

[Larson Graff]

I think that a Black Nail is a great idea, and I am glad that this topic has been brought up once again for consideration.

The Gold Nail is quite a beast not only in its diameter but its length, making it quite impossible for many to honestly pursue.

If this Black Nail were created, and its level of difficulty were somewhere in the realm of an Edgin Bolt, I believe it might bridge this large gap to the Gold Nail quite nicely.

That being said, I have not and may never bend a Gold Nail in any way, shape, or form, so there may be a bigger gap from an Edgin Bolt to a Gold Nail than A Red Nail to an Edgin Bolt if that makes any sense.

For those who are training for the Gold Nail and are making progress toward it, I salute you.

Best - Larson