Discussing Grip and Strength Training with Joe Kinney

[Joe Kinney]

Rick Browne wrote:


Thank you for the candid answers. Living in Bean Station, Tn. at that time, where in the world did you first see or come in contact with the plate loading gripper machines? Which one, if any, gave you the blueprint (sort of ) to build your own?


Well Rick, IronMind sent a catalog with my order. I remember getting ideas from that. I looked at what was available, and tried to figure out what would be the most effective. Some of my stuff looks very similar to what IronMind was marketing. They haven't filed suit – yet.


The plate loading grip machine was changed around a few times as I learned things. The angle of the handles was changed. The thickness of the handles was changed to allow them to close tighter than a CoC gripper. The 'antlers' were changed when I ran out of room for weight, etc. These are changes anyone would likely make, or have made, as they progress with their grip training. Don't be afraid to cut a few things up and re-arrange 'em. Sometimes this can make your training more productive.


Thanks for the questions, Rick.

[Steve Weiner]

All this talk about grip training made me break out my Secret Weapon that I got from Joe waaaaaay back, around 15 years ago. I am having some trouble typing now. Joe, thanks again for all the inspiration! I may not ever close the #4, but it certainly does not stop me from trying to be the best that I can be.

[Steve Gardener]

Love it. If any of us get to inspire others, as I KNOW you have Steve, we've done something good.

[rick browne]

Sam Scott asked:

Joe, do you know about the two grippers: WT Pro and WT World Class?

How would of you faired against them at your strongest?


Sam,

I'm not familiar with the grippers you mention, and have no experience with them whatsoever. Because of this, I cannot offer any estimate of how well I might have fared with these grippers. Sorry about my lack of knowledge in this area. Thanks for posting a question, Sam. Best of luck to you.

Let's throw some numbers out here and toy with a conclusion. The #4 spring wire is nominally .312. The Pro spring wire is in the .330 range (At least the Pro I have measured .330 diameter.) So the difference between the #4 and Pro is .018. Not a huge jump as compared to the jump between the #3 and the #4 in spring wire size.Joe it is well known you destroyed the #4. I conclude and I believe you would have either closed the Pro at the time you closed the #4 (at the pinnacle of your hand strength) or at least come within a hair of doing it. I also offer the difference in handle spread between the two which may come into play as well. The #4 having a 3 inch spread between the handles and the Pro having a 2.75 inch spread. This was fun to post and it could have been possible too..... Trying to sell ya on it Joe

[Joe Kinney]

Steve Weiner wrote:


All this talk about grip training made me break out my Secret Weapon that I got from Joe waaaaaay back, around 15 years ago. I am having some trouble typing now. Joe, thanks again for all the inspiration! I may not ever close the #4, but it certainly does not stop me from trying to be the best that I can be.


I say:

That's the spirit!!! Well done, Steve. Best of luck to you in your training.

[Randall Strossen]

Joe -

I know a guy who's been stuck at the last 1/8" or less on a Captains of Crush No. 3 gripper for years—he has layoffs, etc. and always bounces back to about the same zone. Personally, I think the guy is a head case and he's psyched out, but since I'm not a clinical psychologist I probably can't give him any good advice on that score.

So, thinking about just the physical part, what's your recommendation for a training program that can get him through that last little bit in two weeks?

Is this possible? If so, what should he do, please?

[Joe Kinney]

Dr. Strossen wrote:

Joe -

I know a guy who's been stuck at the last 1/8" or less on a Captains of Crush No. 3 gripper for years—he has layoffs, etc. and always bounces back to about the same zone. Personally, I think the guy is a head case and he's psyched out, but since I'm not a clinical psychologist I probably can't give him any good advice on that score.

So, thinking about just the physical part, what's your recommendation for a training program that can get him through that last little bit in two weeks?

Is this possible? If so, what should he do, please?


Hard to say whether or not this is possible. A lot depends on the mental toughness of the grip guy. Nevertheless, even without knowing what kind of guy this is, I strongly recommend cheated closes beyond the range. Since he can handle the spring dynamics of closing this gripper to within 1/8”, I would suggest that these exercises be performed as 'holds for time' in the tighter than closed position. A filed #3.5* or #4 would be my choice.
* I've never owned a #3.5, but it seems like a logical choice here.

In summary; forget about the range. You've got that covered. You need to be experiencing more the #3 pressure, and you need to be experiencing it in a tighter than closed position. Some playing with the creep factor in that area is a good thing. Cheat a filed gripper all the way shut, then allow it to open only slightly and force it back shut. Each close from the open position can have many of these smaller movements in the tighter than closed area. This works well.

That's what I would recommend. Good questions, Doc. Wish him luck for me.

[Chuck Hench]

Joe Kinney,
I found out about your attendance over here from lurking the Gripboard and I created this account so I didn't miss the opportunity to speak with you. I'd like to thank you for taking the time to come to these forums to speak your mind and offer advice and I'd like to say, please don't get discouraged by doubters of your authenticity or feats. This is my first post on this forum but I have been a member of many forums of all kinds over the years and I have seen many times where a knowledgeable person has been unjustifiably put into a position of defense from keyboard warriors over drummed up controversy and eventually have given up discussion and disappeared altogether. So again please don't get discouraged by these negative people because the rest of the community has so much to gain and much respect to be given.

I decided to get into grip training because I've always been slender with small, weak forearms and I wanted to increase grip strength to help with work and also to avoid getting a crushed hand during some handshakes. I started with the COC Sport with the eventual goal at peaking at a #2. The sport was a good starting point for me as I could only hit about 12 reps with it. I am new to grip training of only a couple months now but I have quickly become addicted to picking up the grippers when I see them and laying down as well as getting my fix from watching amazing crushing feats and setting techniques from the grip community such as Paul Knight so it didn't take me long to learn about the crushing prowess of the great Joe Kinney. I quickly went to an full grip workout regimen with crushing, pinching, extending etc. after a couple weeks of seeing strength gains much faster than I had anticipated. After only 2 months of training since getting my first COC I can already hit 60 reps, 54 offhand, on the Sport and have ordered #1, #2, and #3 grippers that haven't arrived yet. I am not new to weight training, however the grip training has gotten me back into whole body exercises after a 9 year hiatus when I started having children. Overall I am living a much healthier lifestyle again which can be attributed to starting grip training. Who knows maybe someday I'll certify on a #3.
Joe, I don't have any questions for you at the moment but I just wanted to say thank you for your participation and for being an inspiration.
Chuck

[Joe Kinney]

Chuck Hench wrote:

Joe Kinney,
I found out about your attendance over here from lurking the Gripboard and I created this account so I didn't miss the opportunity to speak with you. I'd like to thank you for taking the time to come to these forums to speak your mind and offer advice and I'd like to say, please don't get discouraged by doubters of your authenticity or feats. This is my first post on this forum but I have been a member of many forums of all kinds over the years and I have seen many times where a knowledgeable person has been unjustifiably put into a position of defense from keyboard warriors over drummed up controversy and eventually have given up discussion and disappeared altogether. So again please don't get discouraged by these negative people because the rest of the community has so much to gain and much respect to be given.

I decided to get into grip training because I've always been slender with small, weak forearms and I wanted to increase grip strength to help with work and also to avoid getting a crushed hand during some handshakes. I started with the COC Sport with the eventual goal at peaking at a #2. The sport was a good starting point for me as I could only hit about 12 reps with it. I am new to grip training of only a couple months now but I have quickly become addicted to picking up the grippers when I see them and laying down as well as getting my fix from watching amazing crushing feats and setting techniques from the grip community such as Paul Knight so it didn't take me long to learn about the crushing prowess of the great Joe Kinney. I quickly went to an full grip workout regimen with crushing, pinching, extending etc. after a couple weeks of seeing strength gains much faster than I had anticipated. After only 2 months of training since getting my first COC I can already hit 60 reps, 54 offhand, on the Sport and have ordered #1, #2, and #3 grippers that haven't arrived yet. I am not new to weight training, however the grip training has gotten me back into whole body exercises after a 9 year hiatus when I started having children. Overall I am living a much healthier lifestyle again which can be attributed to starting grip training. Who knows maybe someday I'll certify on a #3.
Joe, I don't have any questions for you at the moment but I just wanted to say thank you for your participation and for being an inspiration.
Chuck


Welcome to the forum, Chuck. Thank you for the kind words, and for the encouragement. If you do come up with a question, just post it here, and I'll do my best to answer it.

In the meantime; best of luck to you in your training.

[Fenne Muhonen]

Joe, thank you for giving this opportunity for learning.

In some point of this topic you mentioned doing squats everyday or almost everyday. Did you do those always heavy or always light or alternating? Did you do only back squats or sometimes front squats or some other variation?

[Joe Kinney]

Fenne Muhonen wrote:

"Joe, thank you for giving this opportunity for learning.

In some point of this topic you mentioned doing squats everyday or almost everyday. Did you do those always heavy or always light or alternating? Did you do only back squats or sometimes front squats or some other variation?"


Fenne,

Thanks you for the questions. My everyday squatting, the squats for breakfast routine, was usually done with light weight = 335 pounds. This, of course, was done in the mornings. On some days, however, I would also do additional squat workouts in the evening. These additional workouts are where most of the heavy squatting occurred.

All of these squats were done using a homemade safety squat bar. That would mean 'back squats' only, and with me pulling on the handles - a lot. My squat workouts are discussed in great detail on the “Joe Kinney is a Beast” thread. Dr Strossen posted several of my emails there, and these emails carry detailed descriptions of exactly how my squatting progressed. You might consider browsing through what is written there if you're interested in additional details.

Thanks again for the questions. Train hard. Best of luck to you.

[rick browne]

I would like to read the JK Beast thread but I am having problems "Searching" it up. Can somebody help me out with a link or the forum title to find it? Thanks in advance

[Joe Kinney]

Rick Browne wrote:

“I would like to read the JK Beast thread but I am having problems "Searching" it up. Can somebody help me out with a link or the forum title to find it? Thanks in advance”


Here you go, Rick:

http://www.ironmind-forum.com/forum/...st?view=stream

[rick browne]

Thanks Joe.

[rick browne]

My question for the day is;

Any major difference in having your mounted wrist roller at say hip height which would allow you to have the lower arms with the elbows bent at 90 degrees to the upper arm when using the roller- to having the elbow almost straight inline with the upper arm although at a somewhat downward line to the roller. How would this compare to having the roller mounted at shoulder height with the arms straight as well as bending the elbows at shoulder height?

Just by mocking the movement, it does make the shoulders come into a lot more tension when the hands are raised to be inline with the shoulders. I think I would prefer the roller mounted at waist to hip height. Thoughts?

[Jeff Gullicksen]

I filed down my #1 and #1.5 again to get them to close even tighter. If I file them any more my fingertips would push into the thumb pad.
I was doing my workouts using the #2 as my working gripper. Now I use the filed #1 as my working gripper. With this new filing I can get approximately the same number of reps with the filed #1 as I do on a regular #2. The cool thing is that when I close a #2, it feels like I am being fooled. Now I am beginning to understand how Joe Kinney was able to grind the #4. That was just beyond understanding before I started using a filed gripper. Unfortunately, in my line of work doing a lot of negatives is not a good idea for me. I tried. I was so sore that I could not teach my martial arts classes properly. My goal is to close the #3 some day. I am finally seeing some progress in that direction.

[Joe Kinney]

Rick Browne wrote:

My question for the day is;

Any major difference in having your mounted wrist roller at say hip height which would allow you to have the lower arms with the elbows bent at 90 degrees to the upper arm when using the roller- to having the elbow almost straight inline with the upper arm although at a somewhat downward line to the roller. How would this compare to having the roller mounted at shoulder height with the arms straight as well as bending the elbows at shoulder height?

Just by mocking the movement, it does make the shoulders come into a lot more tension when the hands are raised to be inline with the shoulders. I think I would prefer the roller mounted at waist to hip height. Thoughts?


Rick,

While I've never operated a wrist roller at shoulder level, I did mimic the movement as you described. We reached the same conclusion on this. Mounted at waist height is definitely better than shoulder height. Plus, mounting it at waist height gives you a better tool for doing severe overloads. You can apply some downward pressure to help hold an overload up off of the floor while you're changing from one hand to the other. You're on the right track. Thinking through these little problems, and finding ways to get the most out of equipment, are important parts of the recipe. I think you'll do well.

Thanks for the questions, Rick, and sorry about the delay in answering your post. Best of luck to you.

[Joe Kinney]

Jeff Gullicksen wrote:

I filed down my #1 and #1.5 again to get them to close even tighter. If I file them any more my fingertips would push into the thumb pad.
I was doing my workouts using the #2 as my working gripper. Now I use the filed #1 as my working gripper. With this new filing I can get approximately the same number of reps with the filed #1 as I do on a regular #2. The cool thing is that when I close a #2, it feels like I am being fooled. Now I am beginning to understand how Joe Kinney was able to grind the #4. That was just beyond understanding before I started using a filed gripper. Unfortunately, in my line of work doing a lot of negatives is not a good idea for me. I tried. I was so sore that I could not teach my martial arts classes properly. My goal is to close the #3 some day. I am finally seeing some progress in that direction.


Jeff,

Is sounds like you've filed the handles right up to the practical limit. This is a good tactic, and I'm pleased to learn that it's working for you. Yes; training beyond the range works - and yes, your hand is being fooled. It expects a trip approximately 3/8” further than a stock CoC gripper will allow. This type of training will give you a distinct advantage. What you've done with these grippers will stick with you throughout your gripper closing challenges. The realization that you can trick your body is a giant step in dominating the CoC grippers. Those who don't train this way will not have that built in instinct to go 3/8” further. Whether they close a particular gripper or not will be determined by whether or not they can reach the closed position – a position they have never been beyond. If they're off by a 1/16” that day, it's a failure. You, on the other hand, will have already slammed the gripper and will never even know that you might have been off by a 1/16” that day. This is important stuff.

Don't forget that deep and slow stretching can be helpful on the days after grip work. Nevertheless, you may need to perform fewer negatives. There is a modification you can use to remain in the most beneficial zone. Recently, Dr. Strossen asked a question for someone, and part of my answer included the following advice:

“You need to be experiencing more [than] #3 pressure, and you need to be experiencing it in a tighter than closed position. Some playing with the creep factor in that area is a good thing. Cheat a filed gripper all the way shut, then allow it to open only slightly and force it back shut. Each close from the open position can have many of these smaller movements in the tighter than closed area. This works well.”

Working this creep factor will give you the best work you can find without the range of movement associated with traditional negatives. This might help you. In summary; I'm very pleased to learn that you put the beyond the range tactic to good use. Now, it's just a matter of progression. You'll move along well, and be filing and closing stronger grippers before you're done. Thanks for writing, and please keep us updated. Best of luck to you, Jeff.

[richardcottrell]

Joe,
Like many people, I also joined this forum just so I could ask you a question, so I thank you for your time.

As I have become fascinated with grip training, I have started tracking down as much reading material as possible.
With you being the first person to close the #4, I bought the Milo issues with you in them, as well as the CoC book. I also got your DVD, and recently I bought your Secret Weapon guide from John Wood.

As I look at my growing grip equipment collection, I realize that grippers play a big part in my fascination with grip strength, but from most all resources, people seem to agree that Grippers are mostly good for developing a very specific grip strength that is mostly good for closing grippers.

From all my reading about you and from your recent input here on the Iron-mind forum, you always seem like a very practical and down to earth person. You do not seem interested in waisting Money, Time or Effort.

My question is in two parts:
1) Do you agree that the strength used to close a gripper is limited in application to “just closing grippers”?
2) If you do agree with that statement, why did closing the #4 still became such a passionate goal for you?

sincerely,
rich cottrell

[rick browne]

Rick Browne wrote:

My question for the day is;

Any major difference in having your mounted wrist roller at say hip height which would allow you to have the lower arms with the elbows bent at 90 degrees to the upper arm when using the roller- to having the elbow almost straight inline with the upper arm although at a somewhat downward line to the roller. How would this compare to having the roller mounted at shoulder height with the arms straight as well as bending the elbows at shoulder height?

Just by mocking the movement, it does make the shoulders come into a lot more tension when the hands are raised to be inline with the shoulders. I think I would prefer the roller mounted at waist to hip height. Thoughts?


Rick,

While I've never operated a wrist roller at shoulder level, I did mimic the movement as you described. We reached the same conclusion on this. Mounted at waist height is definitely better than shoulder height. Plus, mounting it at waist height gives you a better tool for doing severe overloads. You can apply some downward pressure to help hold an overload up off of the floor while you're changing from one hand to the other. You're on the right track. Thinking through these little problems, and finding ways to get the most out of equipment, are important parts of the recipe. I think you'll do well.

Thanks for the questions, Rick, and sorry about the delay in answering your post. Best of luck to you.

No worries Joe, any answers to my questions is ok at your leisure. Anyway, I agree that the lower mounting of the wrist roller is more progressive and better. Now I must ask what would the optimal diameter be of the WR? At least 2 inches I presume? Maybe even to 2.25 to 2.50 inch? What say you?