Unquestionable??? Not Even Close.

[Joe Kinney]

Recently, I wrote the following on this forum regarding richard sorin:

“No problem. You're quite right that this guy should be unquestionable - above reproach, really. However, that doesn't seem to be the case.
The fact that he has so many believers reminds me of a something I heard told to someone years ago. It went something like this:

"Boy, it ain't not knowing that's hurtin' ya. It's knowing so much that just ain't so."”

That’s more than just a quaint saying. Unfortunately, there are still a lot of people who think of sorin as some kind of unquestionable grip king, because they ‘know so much that just ain’t so’. There are also lots of people who have serious doubts about sorin’s claims. Plus, I have questions of my own on the subject of this supposed grip king. What follows is a small sampling of unanswered questions I have regarding some of sorin’s claims.

1. Who of ‘grip mastery’* witnessed sorin close a CoC #3 for certification in 1991?
2. Who believes sorin’s 13 year old son had the maturity and ‘grip mastery’ necessary to be a satisfactory neutral judge for his dad’s CoC #3 certification?
3. Who believes sorin’s 13 year old son could tell the difference between sorin's un-numbered grippers at the time of his supposed CoC #3 certification in 1991?
4. Who believes sorin’s employee (secretary – Gerri P.) could be a satisfactory neutral judge for her boss’s CoC #3 certification?
5. Who believes sorin’s secretary, Gerri P., had the ‘grip mastery’ necessary to judge a CoC #3 certification?
6. Who believes sorin’s secretary, Gerri P., could tell the difference between sorin's un-numbered grippers at the time of his supposed CoC #3 certification?
7. Who of ‘grip mastery’ ever witnessed sorin close his fantasy four gripper?
8. Who believes sorin’s son and secretary, mentioned above, had the ‘grip mastery’, or technical know-how, to distinguish sorin’s un-numbered fantasy four gripper from the other un-numbered grippers sorin had at the time he supposedly closed his fantasy four gripper?
9. Who believes sorin ever closed his fantasy four gripper and; what evidence is your belief based on?
10. Why hasn’t sorin ever sent IronMind any photographs of his claimed #3 ‘certification’ close in 1991?
11. Why hasn’t sorin ever sent IronMind any photographs of his claimed fantasy four close?
12. Who believes the plaster cast shown here: https://www.starkcenter.org/2010/05/helping-hands-2/ depicts the hand of a man holding a CoC #3 gripper closed approximately one inch, as claimed by sorin?
13. Who believes sorin held a CoC gripper rated at 160+ lbs closed approximately one inch for more than ten minutes (on two different occasions), as claimed in his fairy-tale found at the aforementioned link?
14. Who believes sorin’s failed CoC #3 attempt when trying to win an Emerson knife was really just a ‘testing squeeze’, as claimed by sorin?
15. Why would sorin, supposedly a man of ‘grip mastery’, be so cautious of a CoC #3 gripper, that he would have to perform a ‘testing squeeze’?
16. Why didn’t sorin slam the Emerson CoC #3 after performing his bull$hit ‘testing squeeze’? (sorin admits ‘elsewhere’ on the internet that the subject gripper is no tougher than an ordinary CoC #3)
17. Who believes sorin would have declined the Emerson knife if his attempt to close the CoC #3 wasn’t a failure?
18. Who thinks these questions would generate more, or better, answers in response to a YouTube video titled: “Was Richard Sorin a Fraud or Legit?”

*‘grip mastery’ is a qualification sorin dreamt up. I’m certain he intended for it to apply to all CoC certification witnesses.

[Robert artmont]

Joe-
playing devils advocate here....I’m not condoning Richard’s actions, but to a well trained gripper eye...you can look at the no.4 close you did and see the speed up at the end; this can throw a lot of people off. Unless you purposely hold back on an easy gripper, then burst it closed. Even then, I cannot duplicate your close the way it looks! Haha. since the easy gripper you taped up in the original video seems to have that natural slowdown at the end; even the squeak from the spring has a high to low squeak- even tho it was an easy gripper for you. I’m not saying it was fake, but telling you a different version from my well trained eye in this. So, it is what it is now ...it’s just circumstances beyond control at this point.

And then to have that gripper disappear, from being stolen...the one they think is fake, you unfortunately will always have these problems with people believing.
It is a shame that it all has come to this...unfortunately it will never lose its dark cloud; your story, and Richard’s.

[Joe Kinney]

Joe-
playing devils advocate here....I’m not condoning Richard’s actions, but to a well trained gripper eye...you can look at the no.4 close you did and see the speed up at the end; this can throw a lot of people off. Unless you purposely hold back on an easy gripper, then burst it closed. Even then, I cannot duplicate your close the way it looks! Haha. since the easy gripper you taped up in the original video seems to have that natural slowdown at the end; even the squeak from the spring has a high to low squeak- even tho it was an easy gripper for you. I’m not saying it was fake, but telling you a different version from my well trained eye in this. So, it is what it is now ...it’s just circumstances beyond control at this point.

And then to have that gripper disappear, from being stolen...the one they think is fake, you unfortunately will always have these problems with people believing.
It is a shame that it all has come to this...unfortunately it will never lose its dark cloud; your story, and Richard’s.

The best way to address your points is to start at the end of your comment. You’re quite right; it is a shame we are at this point. However, I’m not the guy who has brought this to the sport. I let this nonsense go on for more than 15 years before saying a thing. Once involved, I answered a plethora of questions, rebutted a bunch of bull$hit accusations and allegations, and even offered training advice. Questions were answered, the situation quieted down, and I went off to do other things. We’re past the 20 year mark now, and things are just as vile as last time I decided to get involved.

Your next point, working backwards, is that of the stolen gripper. Pretty sure this has been pointed out before, but here we go. First #4 gripper vs. Second #4 gripper

First #4 Gripper
Source: Bought from IronMind
Status: MIA – Stolen
Appeared: #4 Certification, still shots in Milo, etc.

Second #4 Gripper
Source: Bought from a fellow grip guy
Status: Still in my possession
Appeared: Get a Grip video, and AOBS

Things should be clearer, now. The second one felt a little tougher than my first one – probably from having a wider spread. However, once I got it was closed down to what I call ‘my area’, it didn’t stand a chance. BTR training, Monster Gripper holds…

The easy gripper you mention was just that – easy. It was being used in a demonstration to show how smoothly a gripper could be closed with the friction of the knurling taken out of the equation. Slamming it shut with Bob Munden-like speed wouldn’t have showed you much.

No, I don’t hold back and then ‘burst it closed’, although it might appear that way. What you saw should make sense when you think about the type of training detailed throughout the film. It’s obvious that I was focused on short range, or beyond the range training. Full range closes were a rarity in my training. There were lots of full range negatives, but that’s an entirely different situation. There, the muscles start at their strongest (in the closed position), and fatigue as the gripper opens. They’re negatives in more ways than one. Some people thrive on them – others crumble. It’s pretty simple stuff, really.

The Devil’s advocate… That’s a good one. I was tempted to reply by posting; https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xxT5CV9YIq0 , but that would have been rude.

[Robert artmont]

The best way to address your points is to start at the end of your comment. You’re quite right; it is a shame we are at this point. However, I’m not the guy who has brought this to the sport. I let this nonsense go on for more than 15 years before saying a thing. Once involved, I answered a plethora of questions, rebutted a bunch of bull$hit accusations and allegations, and even offered training advice. Questions were answered, the situation quieted down, and I went off to do other things. We’re past the 20 year mark now, and things are just as vile as last time I decided to get involved.

Your next point, working backwards, is that of the stolen gripper. Pretty sure this has been pointed out before, but here we go. First #4 gripper vs. Second #4 gripper

First #4 Gripper
Source: Bought from IronMind
Status: MIA – Stolen
Appeared: #4 Certification, still shots in Milo, etc.

Second #4 Gripper
Source: Bought from a fellow grip guy
Status: Still in my possession
Appeared: Get a Grip video, and AOBS

Things should be clearer, now. The second one felt a little tougher than my first one – probably from having a wider spread. However, once I got it was closed down to what I call ‘my area’, it didn’t stand a chance. BTR training, Monster Gripper holds…

The easy gripper you mention was just that – easy. It was being used in a demonstration to show how smoothly a gripper could be closed with the friction of the knurling taken out of the equation. Slamming it shut with Bob Munden-like speed wouldn’t have showed you much.

No, I don’t hold back and then ‘burst it closed’, although it might appear that way. What you saw should make sense when you think about the type of training detailed throughout the film. It’s obvious that I was focused on short range, or beyond the range training. Full range closes were a rarity in my training. There were lots of full range negatives, but that’s an entirely different situation. There, the muscles start at their strongest (in the closed position), and fatigue as the gripper opens. They’re negatives in more ways than one. Some people thrive on them – others crumble. It’s pretty simple stuff, really.

The Devil’s advocate… That’s a good one. I was tempted to reply by posting; https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xxT5CV9YIq0 , but that would have been rude.

Sorry, Joe...had to give you a challenge no one has yet.
one more question: the no.4 for certifying and Milo shots Was stolen.
the new no.4 was the one in the video. So can you clarify how this 2nd no.4 video was shown to Randall for certifying before you had it? Didn’t you send a video to Randall even though IronMind didn’t require it?

[Robert artmont]

Joe-
is it my bad eyes...extremely coincidental...or something else? But, if you take the no.4 stamp in the video, and the one in the picture of Milo they look to be in the same position. You have to invert it because you have the stamp in the fingers for the video ...and in the palm for the picture. They could be stamped the same way; IronMind strives for consistency.

[Joe Kinney]

Sorry, Joe...had to give you a challenge no one has yet.
one more question: the no.4 for certifying and Milo shots Was stolen.
the new no.4 was the one in the video. So can you clarify how this 2nd no.4 video was shown to Randall for certifying before you had it? Didn’t you send a video to Randall even though IronMind didn’t require it?

“… … So can you clarify how this 2nd no.4 video was shown to Randall for certifying before you had it?”… …

Pretty sure you meant to write “2nd no. 4 gripper”. Yeah, it was sold by him, and probably even packaged by him. This thing is from the days when CoC grippers showed up in a little plastic bag along with a piece of paper. Then, it was sent back to him to be checked out and to take a trip to the AOBS. It is also pictured on this forum, in the GOPD thread. It's safe to say Dr. Strossen is quite familiar with this particular gripper.

… … “Didn’t you send a video to Randall even though IronMind didn’t require it?”

Yup.

[Joe Kinney]

Joe-
is it my bad eyes...extremely coincidental...or something else? But, if you take the no.4 stamp in the video, and the one in the picture of Milo they look to be in the same position. You have to invert it because you have the stamp in the fingers for the video ...and in the palm for the picture. They could be stamped the same way; IronMind strives for consistency.

“is it my bad eyes...extremely coincidental...or something else?” … …

WTH, man??? You had at least one well trained eye yesterday. You’re falling apart.
Take a look at the picture (with your best eye). See any consistency? Didn’t think so.


Come to think of it, my eyes might be failing a bit, as well. I can’t seem to find your answers to the questions I posted.

[Robert artmont]

“… … So can you clarify how this 2nd no.4 video was shown to Randall for certifying before you had it?”… …

Pretty sure you meant to write “2nd no. 4 gripper”. Yeah, it was sold by him, and probably even packaged by him. This thing is from the days when CoC grippers showed up in a little plastic bag along with a piece of paper. Then, it was sent back to him to be checked out and to take a trip to the AOBS. It is also pictured on this forum, in the GOPD thread. It's safe to say Dr. Strossen is quite familiar with this particular gripper.

… … “Didn’t you send a video to Randall even though IronMind didn’t require it?”

Yup.

I’m not sure if I asked it correctly: I believe you mentioned, that when you certified, you also sent him a video of you closing the no.4. This would be the Milo gripper in the video; you then got a new no.4 and made the training video. So, if there is one video...how could it be the new no.4 in the video...when you sent him the video when you certified- with the Milo cover gripper.

Very confusing....

[Robert artmont]

“is it my bad eyes...extremely coincidental...or something else?” … …

WTH, man??? You had at least one well trained eye yesterday. You’re falling apart.
Take a look at the picture (with your best eye). See any consistency? Didn’t think so.


Come to think of it, my eyes might be failing a bit, as well. I can’t seem to find your answers to the questions I posted.

Not sure what you mean? Are you saying these pictures show consistent stamps? I would say no. But your picture gripper and your video gripper do. Maybe single stamp back then were similar.
the questions about the King?
he wasn’t someone who could close the no.3 all the time, so closing the Phantom 4 was a loooong shot!

it was talked about a lot that he closed the no.3 with two fingers at that Dinner, but the ones in the trenches really knew it was a no.2;
when I talked to Brookfield back then, he told me it was a no.2 mistaken for a no.3...Randall knew -tho he still put it in his Captains Of Crush article
Richard even had it as one of his feats on a list he sent me.

the super gripper thing that Richard closed with 4 springs was easier back when he did it. The springs were much tougher after his 4 springs close. But in Randall’s article, we all thought it was the tough ones .

Little things like that cause all this malarkey. Little things being left out of a story to hide or mislead people is wrong- like you did with the Monster Gripper 😀

[Robert artmont]

And his recertification was a little off with that guy putting the card in for him- but he took on the challenge at that age...give him a lot of respect for that.

[Robert artmont]

“… … So can you clarify how this 2nd no.4 video was shown to Randall for certifying before you had it?”… …

Pretty sure you meant to write “2nd no. 4 gripper”. Yeah, it was sold by him, and probably even packaged by him. This thing is from the days when CoC grippers showed up in a little plastic bag along with a piece of paper. Then, it was sent back to him to be checked out and to take a trip to the AOBS. It is also pictured on this forum, in the GOPD thread. It's safe to say Dr. Strossen is quite familiar with this particular gripper.

… … “Didn’t you send a video to Randall even though IronMind didn’t require it?”

Yup.

Fine and dandy, but devils advocate one more time: what would have stopped you- if you wanted to be shady- from closing the not really stolen no.4, then sending back the real one? Is there a specific marking on the gripper he sent so that he can see it in the video?

sorry, my posts are overlapping without answers from my previous ones....

[Joe Kinney]

What is being pointed out with the picture is a manufacturing challenge. It's much easier to have two things come out alike than it is to get four things to come out alike. Switching to double stamped grippers compounded the problem of having the stamps all aiming the same way. There's a far better chance that two single stamp grippers look alike than there is of finding two double stamped jobs that match up in every respect.

Thanks for throwing some answers on there. Getting those questions answered is what this thread is all about. I want to know what people believe, and what they think they 'know'.

[Chuck Hench]

Re-reading through this thread I realized that Joe's initial post never had any response. Unfortunately I don't have any knowledge of grip history to give any constructive input on the matter but if taken as fact I can form my own conclusion. I would conclude that Sorin was only borderline ever able to close the #3 at the most ideal conditions and may have cheated himself to be first on the list. Knowing that he cheated, he couldn't fathom someone else closing a #4 with such authority and he concluded that such a person must have cheated as well. He convinced himself so well that any possible form of evidence that he could use to justify his reasoning he would use and attempt to get others to give confirmation bias.

I hate to give input on matters I don't know much about especially if it paints a bad light on someone but I respect Joe and I don't think he had been given a fair shake in gripsport. Sorry I'm not versed enough to answer each question Joe posted. I will say you'd have to be crazy to accept that a 13yr old son or secretary that works for you are acceptable judges for a gripper close.

[Dan Wathen]

I'm not a grip expert but John Wood and Dennis Rogers are and they both attest to the ability of Joe Kinney to close a #4 gripper.

[Robert artmont]

Re-reading through this thread I realized that Joe's initial post never had any response. Unfortunately I don't have any knowledge of grip history to give any constructive input on the matter but if taken as fact I can form my own conclusion. I would conclude that Sorin was only borderline ever able to close the #3 at the most ideal conditions and may have cheated himself to be first on the list. Knowing that he cheated, he couldn't fathom someone else closing a #4 with such authority and he concluded that such a person must have cheated as well. He convinced himself so well that any possible form of evidence that he could use to justify his reasoning he would use and attempt to get others to give confirmation bias.

I hate to give input on matters I don't know much about especially if it paints a bad light on someone but I respect Joe and I don't think he had been given a fair shake in gripsport. Sorry I'm not versed enough to answer each question Joe posted. I will say you'd have to be crazy to accept that a 13yr old son or secretary that works for you are acceptable judges for a gripper close.

for sure...his questions were so on point, you really can’t argue them! Ha

[Ben Edwards]

for sure...his questions were so on point, you really can’t argue them! Ha

Agreed!

[Robert artmont]

Fine and dandy, but devils advocate one more time: what would have stopped you- if you wanted to be shady- from closing the not really stolen no.4, then sending back the real one? Is there a specific marking on the gripper he sent so that he can see it in the video?

sorry, my posts are overlapping without answers from my previous ones....

Joe- this post I had has relevance to the story IMO. I mentioned in another post, that the stolen no.4 had the same stamp position as the “new one” in the video...and you said that is more likely for that to happen than not...but I have noticed a little metal bubble or speck in the handle bottom to the upper right of the no.4 stamp. In the Milo picture and the video. So, I was wondering the odds of two different no,4 gripper’s have the same stamp position and the same metal speck?